Sense door or mind door now?

Azita: I have a comment, many more mind door processes than sense door processes, could you talk a little about that please, that's always confused me a little, it doesn't appear that way.

A. Sujin: Can anyone understand the sense door process and the mind process now? What can be understood right now: what kind of citta? What doorway? Or just the reality which is now experiencing an object unknown as it is, because no understanding of what is meant by seeing. When we ask someone: where is seeing, is there seeing? They might get some perplexity about why do we say or ask about that, see. Because is there anyone understanding seeing as it is, not self? We just keep on talking about seeing, now there is seeing for sure, but what is that? See, not self, so what is it? Only the moment of experiencing an object, no thought about sense door or mind door yet.

That's why when there is no understanding of the difference between that which experiences and that which is experienced, no understanding of what is there at all. There is something all the time and "I see" at moment of seeing. That's why instead of thinking about the difference between the sense door and the mind door, which now is there, but even the moment of experiencing directly, is there any idea whether it is sense door or mind door? But that is experienced well, because there is more understanding of it, as just not anything at all. Otherwise it's something as soon as there is seeing, how fast it is, from sense door to mind door all the time, no one knows the difference at all.

So, in the beginning, there should be clear understanding of what is meant by the experiencing, without that there cannot be any world or anything at all appearing. And no idea about whether it's there or not, whether it's conditioned or not at all. But now what is there now? And Buddha had enlightened the truth, the absolute truth of everything. That's why he taught us about what is there it's not a thing or a person, or anything at all. But it's there by conditions, because no one makes it arise at all. While we are talking there is seeing, many things around, see, how fast it is, from sense door to mind, with different conditioned moments, to like or dislike and so on, and thinking all about that, see.

That's why, first of all, one has to be so truthful: is there more understanding of that which experiences as it is, as not self, and that which is seen, that is different, quite different, because it cannot experience anything, and the experiencing, what are there? Not only the chief of experiencing, but there are other realities right now, see. Like or dislike, remembering, feeling, together, at that moment, unknown. That's why it's impossible to just let go of the idea of self, without any more understanding about that which is now appearing, stage by stage, from learning. And pañña, right understanding, knows that it's just the word, but one begins to understand the meaning of it, but the characteristic of that which has been talked about is not known yet.

That's why that person, or at that moment there can be the understanding of the difference between the direct awareness, which means more understanding and clearer than before. Clear here has different levels too, for example, do you see what's in front of you clearly? Some would say: yes, it's clear, and some might say it's clearer and the thinking at that moment is just about the object, thinking about the object, but the object does not appear as it's there and no more, arising and falling away, at all. That's why we learn to understand the worth of the teachings of the Buddha, that they can bring about the understanding of this moment, little by little.

And from understanding that the understanding of that it's so far away from what we are talking about now. Each word must be understood as: what is it? For example, problem, I've heard the word problem, what is problem? No thought about the reality of what we are saying, but thought about the story of that problem. So it keeps away from understanding what is now appearing, all the time. That's why beginning to understanding, no matter what is there, it's conditioned, arising and falling away, the truth is that: no more, no one, no thing,. and this is the absolute truth. Without thinking, considering to understand what is now appearing, it's impossible to understand the words of the Buddha, which represents the truth of each reality as it is.

That's why, regarding the question whether it's sense door or mind door, what about the nimitta which appears to know that: who can divide, or who can make it appear as it's now appearing, which is not the truth, because the truth is that it's there only for a very short moment, unknown, according to the process through different doorways, there is only one moment of seeing, think about that: only one moment of seeing, only one moment of hearing, just one moment, see. How can it be known without the teachings, to bring about the understanding of what is meant by now, see, unknown, what are there? Not just that which experiences but also the condition for each to be there, known or unknown, but not understanding as this yet.

For example we've talked about the feeling, where is it, can it arise alone? It has to experience something, unpleasant or pleasant. And can it arise to feel without the experiencing, the chief of that which arises just to be the chief of experiencing that object, no other functions at all, it cannot like, or dislike, or remember, or whatever. And this is understanding the truth of each reality, little by little, from: it's different, there is feeling, no one thinks about that at all, just talks about many many problems and so on. But what is there, what do we feel, can it arise alone? Or it experiences, but it's not the chief of experiencing.

This will bring about the understanding of no self, rather than thinking much about the story, and trying to find out the sense door and the mind door, impossible. But they are there, one by one each moment. So, even at that moment, understanding that which experiences is not enough, as that only. But what about the feeling, and the sañña, remembering, and whatever is there, together. And the Buddha talked about what conditions that moment to arise, what's there, each one, like phassa. No one could have any understanding of it at all if Buddha hadn't taught us to understand the truth that actually nothing can be taken for self, each moment is different by different realities.

And if you want to try to understand the difference between the citta, that which is the chief of experiencing, and the phassa, like the sense door and the mind door, is it possible? But whatever appears appears, better and better, with more and more, not just thinking, but experiencing, little by little. And that which is the beginning of experiencing is satisampajañña, not just hearing considering and understanding, not enough. That's why pañña develops on and on, more and more, until one can understand that it's so far away, much deeper, more and more subtle than anyone can think about.

Because what appears well can only be one, how come? But that's the teaching of the enlightened one, who taught about reality, and what he said after his enlightenment? Dhamma is so very subtle, very deep, very profound, very difficult to understand, and to experience directly needs much more understanding than just talking about citta now experiences with cetasikas and so on. So, we have to understand the reality which now experiences, impossible to try, but it depends on more listening and careful, wise considering, to understand that one is one, but one which can appear is one nimitta.

Beginning to understand deeper about what is there now. So, it's not just about the word that you've heard, how many cetasikas arise with this citta, and how many cetasikas arise with the other citta, so very fast, very quick. But learning to understand about no self, and beginning to understand that which experiences. It's kept in mind, when there's more and more understanding of the truth of it as not self, otherwise, okay it's not self, and we talk about other things, see. But what is the reminder, to be kept in mind, to condition moment of even thinking about that, right now. Before we were talking about this, later we talked about this, what are there?

Can there be the moment of thinking about it? That's why it needs not only the sutamaya pañña, but it has to be with cintamaya pañña as well, because when we've learned and we've understood and then forget all about it. But how come to just think about that which is heard, more and more, little by little. To bring about the direct awareness with understanding, but that has developed, to be condition to have direct awareness arise with understanding. So, now it seems like there is understanding, some may say enough, but actually it's not enough, as long as it does not condition the moment of direct awareness with understanding of that which is now appearing, so natural, by conditions.

Otherwise it motivates more and more clinging, wanting to do this or to understand that, all the time, unknown. That is why the lobha is so very very tricky, who knows it's there now? Only pañña can begin to know, little by little, until it's so skillful to condition higher understanding, little by little. So, what do you think about the sense door and the mind door now. At moment of seeing it seems like there is seeing, but what it is seeing? Clothes, table, and chairs, and many things, what doorway? ...alternating all the time, all the time so very fast.

So, would you like to find a way to understand the sense door and the mind door, by yourself? Or from understanding better and better, until there can be the understanding of the difference between seeing and thinking, so very close, everything is so close, seeing, and hearing, and thinking. What doorway? No need to think about doorways, but to understand the different characteristics can be the beginning of understanding that thinking cannot be sense door, only that. Until it appears, and what appears knows the difference between the sense door and the mind door, vipassanañana is mind door.

So, what is seen or heard can appear at that moment, and mind door is so dark, what appears as light, when there is seeing, is so very short that, to know that it's that object, which is not dark, but sound, even it's dark, but it's different from that which is light, for just a very tiny, such tiny moment, through mind door. When there is the understanding of mind door there is the understanding of the difference between the sense door and the mind door. So now, what is more, the sense door or the mind door processes, from moment to moment. As it appears, it has to appear as it is only when there is the understanding, enough to be pativedha, which has to be from the highly developed patipatti, which has to be from understanding better and better, from intellectual understanding. And this is what is meant by bhāvana, that which hasn't happened or occurred at all. It can be conditioned by hearing and considering that which is not self at all, whatever is there, no matter when and what. And this is what we mean by dhamma, anatta, and suññata.

So, does the mind door appears now? But is there mind door? Can it be directly known, the mind door? Not now, to understanding, otherwise what can understand that moment, as it is?

Azita: There's trying to understand but that's not understanding, that's the wrong way.

A. Sujin: And what is that which tries? Without understanding it's me all the time, that's why the Buddha taught about the truth of every reality as it is, to be known, to condition more understanding of no self, no me, no thing. Just appears and disappears, this is like a dream or fantasy.

...

Sukin: I was wondering, when Jon was referring to a sotapanna, whether that knowledge about the difference between mind or and sense door is just what happens when pañña arises to know that and then, otherwise after that, it seems like normal, the sense door covers the mind door because thinking is thinking about what's experienced through the senses, even for sotapanna?

A. Sujin: So what's the nature, or what's the truth, of understanding the moment when it's through sense door process or the mind door process.

Sukin: I mean whatever is the object of pañña, that's what's understood.

A. Sujin: Only by the Buddha or also by his disciples like arahatta, and anagami and sakadagami and sotapanna as well?

Sukin: So a sotapanna has no more wrong understanding about what's sense door and what's mind door.

A. Sujin: Yes, what about ariya saccca, is it true only for arahatta, not for anagami, sakadagami and sotapanna?

Sukin: I forgot that what appears now... it will be right understanding of what appears, and no more wrong understanding.

A. Sujin: And what is that which is vipassanañana?

Sukin: It's right understanding of what appears.

A. Sujin: Arising and falling away too, like now. Pañña is different.