No-one no-thing, turning up that which is turned down

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(Suitable for beginners) - Jotika: I would like to ask, if there is the seeing, if there is the hearing all the time, then there is never more planning or something.

A. Sujin: Can anyone stop thinking to arise, after seeing?

Jot. No.

Su. That's why there must be thinking by conditions, accumulation to think in such way, never change from what has been accumulated. Some people think wrongly and some people think rightly, some people think in wholesome ways and some people think in unwholesome manners, by conditions. This is the way to understand the truth that no one can control anything, because actually what is there is not anyone, but what is there is conditioned to be just that, cannot be changed from this to that, because it has [been] already conditioned, it has already arisen. Who can change that? But it can be understood as no one at all, because what is there by conditions, to think rightly or wrongly, wholesome way or unwholesome way, by conditions. The most important thing is that nobody can change anyone at all, because actually there's no one, only the right words to bring about right understanding, considering wisely that actually, having wholesome realities or having unwholesome realities, what moment is better? Not self, but what is better? Wholesome realities or unwholesome realities, which are beneficial?

So, when one hears something and it conditions anger, can anyone change that person who spoke like that or: what is there now? Unpleasant feeling is there. And when it's unpleasant, is it good? Or what about moments when it's pleasant feeling or indifferent feeling? And who can make it? The other cannot condition it, but only the accumulation in the past condition that to be wholesome or unwholesome. So it cannot be the others help to condition what is there which is wrong to be right, but it has to be the accumulation of one's own. We use the word one because we are not talking about the other accumulation, but we just talk about anyone accumulation, to be such and such, no one can do for the other, it has to be one's own understanding. Ignorance is there, unwholesome moments are there, who can help? Only understanding can see that it's conditioned, nobody likes it to be in the wrong way, but it's there by conditions, and no one can help anyone at all, it has to be one's own, from hearing, considering wisely, understanding the truth little by little. So that when it's strong enough, there can be understanding of that which doesn't appear as it is, to appear as it is, little by little, as one has heard.

No one can change seeing to be hearing, no one can change anger to be liking or attachment. Whatever is there's by conditions, and when right understanding can understand what is right and what is wrong, what is beneficial and what is not beneficial at all. That's why only that understanding can develop the moment of having such anger which can be moment of understanding what is there, not me, but it's such reality, conditioned. And when there's no understanding it will be more and more unwholesome realities, conditioned, after moment of hearing considering so on, depending on wisely or unwisely.

Is there thinking now?

Jot. Yes.

Su. Unknown. What is that thinking?

Jot. We do that the whole day, going on and on and on and on and on, there's all the time seeing there's thinking.

Su. But it's thinking before the story. At the moment of seeing something, if there's no thinking about the shape and form, can there be the idea of something? So sudden after seeing process, only bhavangas in between, and then mind door process experiences the same object, but it doesn't see, and after that it thinks about what was seen as: something there, because of not understanding the moment which it's not the same moment of seeing and the same moment of thinking. Thinking, there can be thinking without seeing, and there is always thinking about that which is seen, instantly after the sense-door process. So it's there unknown, until the Buddha taught about that, how fast it is, very rapidly, from sense-door to mind-door. And now there are so many things! Which means so many mind-door processes about things, and the story of the things, of planning and so on.

That's why as long as there is still thinking like there is seeing all day, no one thinks about the mind processes, because the seeing is there and the thinking does not show up like visible object or sound, but it's there instantly after sense-door process.

Jot. So it is always from seeing to thinking.

Su. Right, otherwise there cannot be Jonothan and Sarah and anyone there at all, not I, not him. But the idea of something is always there, as long as there is clinging to that object, not experiencing the arising and falling away by conditions, just appears and disappears instantly. And this is the world, unknown, the truth is covered up. The birth moment is not this moment, just a moment of seeing is not this moment of seeing, how fast it is, and thinking it's in between, because there is idea of something all the time after seeing.

Jot. After every seeing there's thinking, after hearing there's thinking.

Su. Seeing cannot think, it sees and then, when it arises and falls away so very rapidly, what is seen is not just the color, but it is the shape and form of something, by sañña marking it, remembering it. That's why sañña arises with each citta, it arises at moment of seeing and each moment after that and before that, and it marks and remembers wrongly, because it cannot experience directly the arising and falling away, but it takes that which appears as something. So it is sañña vipallasa, which conditions the ditthi vipallasa, taking it for something very permanent, never lost from birth to death, there must be I always there, but actually different moments, different cittas, different realities. Some moment there's liking, some moment there's disliking and so on, different all the time, anyone cannot be taken for the self because it's gone completely, never to return at all, even just right now. That's why the truth can be discerned when pañña is developed enough to let go what is there, together, as only one reality at a time, to be known.

Jonathan: And without thinking, then one would not understand what was being spoken at the time.

Su. Did the Buddha think?

Jotika: Yes, I think so.

Su. Everyone.

Jot. Yes, everyone thinks.

Su. Does the tiny ant think?

Jot. I don't know... An ant thinking...

Su. How can it live without thinking?

Jot. I think it can't, but I don't know.

Su. Does it see?

Jot. Yes, I think so.

Su. Does it know what it's there?

Jot. Yes, for sure.

Su. Edible? :)

Jot. I didn't understand the last question.

Su. Because one takes the food, because one knows what it is, right? We don't eat the flower or we didn't eat the earth or the wood, but that which can be eaten. So what about the tiny ant?

Jot. Yes, it can eat, I think so.

Su. Does it know that that can be eaten, it's edible?

Jot. Yeah it will not eat what is not good for it.

Su. So its shape is just made to be different from human being, but the seeing is the seeing, the thinking is the thinking, the absolute truth cannot be changed at all. Without the body, can one know what is what? Deva or ant or elephant or what. Seeing is just seeing, thinking is thinking.

Jon. I think we say that animals act instinctively, what is that reality that we call animal instinct?

Su. Can we say that when it's not seeing hearing smelling tasting touching it is thinking? Roughly, not in details. When it's not seeing hearing smelling testing touching, what is there? Is it thinking or nothing at all?

Jot. Must be thinking, yes.

Su. Yes, even in a dream, no seeing, no hearing, smelling tasting. But there's thinking.

Jot. It's thinking, yes.

Su. All the time, many more than the seeing processes and so on, but what is known is not as they are, it seems like there are more processes of seeing, but actually thinking [processes] are many more than those, because nobody minds about seeing and what is seen at all, while one keeps on thinking or planning.

Jot. But the ant does not think, Ajahn, does it think?

Su. The ant does not know the name of that person, and its birth consciousness is different, because it's the akusala vipāka, to be born in such animal [plane]. But it has to think, because it doesn't have only seeing hearing smelling tasting touching, it must be thinking as well. Otherwise how can it know to go this way or that way?

Jot. I don't know, I think by smelling and knowing, smelling and knowing.

Su. Yes.

Jot. But the knowing is the thinking.

Su. When it likes that, because of smelling that, just wanting to eat that, to be its food. That's why some smells condition attachment too. And what about the unpleasant smell, so much one doesn't like it, and when tasting it knows the taste too, because the taste is different, so no matter what tasting is there, which tastes the object which is unpleasant or pleasant, by conditions. When it likes or is attached to the object, is it the same or different from human being?

Jot. Same.

Su. That's it, because nobody can change the characteristic which is attachment, to be different from that, no matter when and of what object, because it's no one, it's just the reality which arises to be attached to that which is the object. And this is Dhamma, no one, only different realities. Avijja is there, sankhara is there, now, this moment too.

Jot. It's so amazing.

Su. That's why we begin to understand the virtues of the Buddha, his greatest virtues, incomparable, no one can compare to his wisdom, his virtues, no matter what universe, not just only this world. After hearing the Teachings one knows who's the Buddha. And when there's more understanding one can understand that without his enlightenment and his Teachings it would impossible for anyone to have such light to understand the truth of that which is covered up from life to life. Only things around, but actually no-thing, only different realities conditioned to arise and fall away in split second. Just turning up that which is turned down, and what are there so many many realities, and it's not opened up yet, until the words of the Teaching condition the moment of understanding it. No key, no way to open it up by one's ignorance, only right understanding begins to know what is that which can open up that which is locked, tightly too, right now. But there can be the understanding from considering the truth of the word about what is there now. That is the study of the Dhamma, otherwise it's only hearing and thinking about the story, not understanding that which is now, that the Buddha taught to just come closer and closer, to see it as it is, sanditthiko. Akaliko, any moment can be condition to develop, to understand it, not far away.

So there can be the understanding of how much ignorance is there at each moment of taking anything for something all day, while nothing is there after it's gone. So, seeing and dreaming about seeing, many things, computers and story and plans for this and that while it's not there anymore. Just live in the world of ignorance, not understanding that which has gone as is not there anymore, but keeping on thinking that it's there.


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Video image of Kukkuta jātaka 383 (Bharhut)