Āsava, like the magician, no one knows what's up there (1st part)

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Sarah: We've discussed a lot about āsavas, Ajahn, and I checked in the Abhidhamma, it showed that all 29 kāmāvacara javana citta arise in a sense door process, so any kind of akusala can arise immediately in the sense-door process. I'm wondering if you have any comments because we were just discussing why the āsavas, just the lobha, ignorance and wrong view are emphasized and someone asked what about dosa so...

A. Sujin: When dosa arises it's not āsava, it can arise, but it's not āsava because the way it appears it's not just like those āsavas at all.

Sa. So it arises but it's not classified as āsava...

Su. ...after they've arisen, whether they are dosa or other realities, but they're not just like the āsava at all: unknown. But when dosa is there: it's known.

Jonothan: So can we say the significance of the āsavas is that although they are arising they're not apparent?

Su. It means that even one thinks that one doesn't have akusala at all, but it's there, unknown, as āsava, but when māna is there or something is there it's different from the four [āsavas]. Like clinging to being, anytime, even right now, always I, unknown. Why is there such belief or underlying as I? Because of āsava is there. Because the Buddha talked about the degrees of akusala, as anusaya it does not arise at all, it's there as condition for the arising of the akusala, but when the first javana or the moment when what is experienced is there, when it is another moment with other realities like dosa and so on, it can be known, so that is not āsava, but that which is there, [but] cannot be known, even right now, it's āsava. That's why the Buddha pointed out how many āsava are there.

J. Is it not possible for dosa to arise at a level that can't be known?

Su. It can be known, no matter how very slight it is, right? It can be known.

J. But what about māna?

Su. I think that as soon as māna arises it's known, even it's so very slight.

J. So there's a distinct difference then between some kinds of akusala and other kinds.

Su. It seems like nothing is there as akusala, that's why people think that they don't have akusala, because they don't know that even at that very moment which does not appear as something, like [when] liking so much and so on, but is there as clinging to the self, to the idea of I at moment of... No matter it is seeing or hearing, so very quickly. That's why it's just like the magician, no one knows what's up there at all, from moment to moment, very very quickly, but what the Buddha taught is about when anusayas haven't been eradicated yet, what condition even such moments when there is seeing, hearing and so on, so usual that people think that they don't have any attachment or anything at all, but it's there already.

Sukin: So Ajahn, are you referring to the difference in the characteristics of those dhammas that are āsava and those that are not?

Su. Because you see that there are so many degrees of akusala and kusala accumulated, that's why it's there, like what the Buddha said, intoxicant and so on, just the comparison, just to [show] how much is there, ready to come out, seep, ooze, whatever is there, impinging on such doorway, is there unknown. To know that even it seems like there is no akusala, what is there? What is there? Clinging to being, clinging to sensuous object, and clinging to ignorance... Excuse me, not ignorance, because when it's [only] ignorance is not clinging. That's why, how many kinds of āsava are there? Kāmāsava, clinging to sensuous object; bhāvāsava, clinging to being; ditthāsava; and avijjāsava, even it's there, unknow, avijja cannot be known, as āsava, but even right now, when there's attachment, does anyone know anything about āsava? That's why the Buddha taught about āsava: it's there as avijja but not as upādāna, different levels of each one. Who knows that about āsava, different from upādāna? Because upādāna cannot be avijja-upādāna, but it's there as āsava. Just learn about this moment, whether there is āsava or not, even it seems like there is no akusala at all, but it's there, and what is there, who knows? Avijjāsava, bhāvāsava, kāmāsava, for those who do not have ditthāsava anymore, because it has been eradicated.

So we just talk about that which is there unknown, and the doubt about it is there, but when enough pañña is there, strong enough, there's less doubt about what is there, as is taught, until it's the moment of eradication of doubt about the nāma and rūpa and what is there as self. No more, that's all. So even after a sotapanna experiences the sensuous object on whatever doorway, there's still kāmāsava but not ditthāsava, and no avijja of the level [with] which it arises with ditthi, less and less avijja, but it's still there as long as there is clinging to kāmāsava, sensuous object and being, to be eradicated later, when pañña is stronger, understanding better and better about the danger of birth, or of the arising of dhammas. So we just learned to understand different levels of akusala and dhammas. This is thinking about whether dosa can be āsava and so on, but the truth is that what is there now? Dosa does not appear, it's not there, but when it appears, even just very slightly, it is known, very very slight unpleasant feeling.

Suk. And there's the aspect of āsava that we say it's oozing, what is that oozes?

Su. Khun Sukin, isn't it the same question as anusaya? Whether now, at moment of getting angry, is there no anusaya?

Suk. There is anusaya even when there is no anger.

Su. Can we say that we just talk about life, daily life, at any moment, when whatever appears is beyond being āsava, right? But is the āsava [still] there? We have to understand what is āsava, lobha is there, there must be lobha, no matter of what degree, but when we talk about the difference between samyojana and nīvarana and so on, it means that that akusala is big enough, or enough to appear. For example, as a little fruit, [the] mango is there, just arisen, and then it develops, to grow bigger and bigger, is there no āsava and no taste of mango? But it's stronger that we use that word, to indicate how many different levels are there.

Suk. Ajahn, are you saying that in the case of āsava it's more ready to come out than those which are not āsava?

Su. That's it, that's why usually in a day it seems like there's no akusala, but it's there, unknown, but it's not wholesome and the object is there, experienced, what is there? Not just only the experiencing citta, but there must be other cetasikas as well, performing their function. What about the taste of the little mango, and when it's ripe? Different, but the taste of that is there, we cannot say that there's no taste of that degree.

Suk. Yes, Ajahn.

Su. Is there wrong view now? It's there, unknown, it's something all the time, after seeing. So it seems like it has to be that, people and things all around, avijjāsava is there, unknown, not understanding what is there as it is, and clinging to that as sensuous object, liking it so much, living with it from birth to this moment, and that is the idea of self and things all the time, even [it's] there, it does not appear so big enough, strong enough to be known as "it's there", as anger or whatever, or like or dislike, but is there, what is there?

Just arises, after the process of a doorway is there, experiencing what is there, it's so very very fast, very very rapidly, it's there already, seeped out. Who knows? It's gone because it's gone. Many processes, and [there] is the idea of something, even right now, to understand what is meant by āsava.

Suk. And māna is not like this, māna when it arises it's more apparent.

Su. Just for what the Buddha taught which can be known right now, ditthāsava, something all the time, things around are something, āsava is there, but who knows? It's so natural, unknown until it gets to that degree, higher degree, it's conditioned to be more than just āsava, so it can be upādāna or nīvarana or samyojana, ogha and so on. Just the same mental factors, same cetasikas with different degrees. So when one's heard about āsava one knows that is there now, as long as it doesn't appear as it is, strong enough to appear. Like when you like something, but before that, just waking up, something is the object, right then, unknown, āsava, avijjāsava. To understand the truth about how much kilesa is there, even while one is fast asleep or awaking and then on and on, eating and so on, all day, all are dhammas of different degrees. Otherwise one might say that one doesn't have any akusala, one's such a good person, but actually avijja is there, lobha is there, ditthi is there.

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