Waking up from the dream of nimitta and illusion

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(Suitable for beginners) - Marc: I've read in a post that Alberto sent me that all those moments which are real are so fleeting, so rapidly coming and going and I thought perhaps that's also what zen mean, not so much that coming and going of all those short moments are a dream, but that the reality of things is so very short that you really get stuck in the dream very easily.

Ajahn Sujin: Is this moment just like a dream? Why this moment is just like a dream?

M. It is like a dream.

Su. Yes, what is the difference between the moment of dreaming and this moment, which is just like a dream?

M. Can you repeat the question for me?

Su. Is this moment just like a dream or it is a dream? And, when [this moment] it's not a dream, what is the difference between this moment and a moment of dreaming?

M. No differences, I think.

Su. But we call that a dream and this is not a dream, right? Is this moment a dream?

M. This moment is not a dream.

Su. Really? What is the difference?

M. Not sure... The difference is the delusion or pañña.

Su. And the absolute truth. In the dream there's no sensuous object processes at all, but here and now there are different doorways arising one after the other, that's all, but in a dream it's only thinking. So now, at moment of thinking without seeing, isn't just like a dream?

M. Yes.

Su. Not waking up yet. Would anyone like to be in a dream all the time? Or, just dhamma, different dhammas. When there is no sense doorway at all, in between there are just moments of dreaming, thinking, pure fantasy because it's not just like thinking after seeing, and hearing and thinking right now. Some people would like to live in a dream, thinking about whatever is there, but as long as it's not true because it's not after the sense-door process, it's only thinking. So, thinking, no matter when, is thinking, it depends on conditions to think about pure fantasy or not so fantasy.

M. I think it's hard for my mind to see that the dream is an illusion, the mind wants to see the dream as a reality.

Su. And isn't this moment an illusion?

M. This moment is not an illusion because it's a reality, but it's not seen as a reality.

Su. But that [moment] is now gone forever, just like a dream, different thinking, a story.

M. Yes.

Su. In the sense that it is not there anymore, it's just like a dream.

M. I understand that, yes. Thank you.

Sarah: During a dream at night time is just thinking of the fantasy on and on and on and on, one moment after another without any interruption for sense experiences.

M. And those sense experiences are results of kamma.

Sa. Seeing hearing smelling tasting touching are results of kamma and the two cittas that follow those moments are results of kamma and the two cittas that follow these moments are results of kamma, vipāka cittas. Then there are the kusala or akusala cittas, usually lost in the fantasy instantly.

Jonothan: But not in the case of the kusala cittas, presumably.

Sukin: Can we say then that this fantasizing is papañca? [Sundara: Proliferations.]

Betty: Excuse me, going back to what Ajahn just said both the conventional world and dreams are illusions and so I think maybe we need to bring up here the difference between reality and concepts that Marc might be interested in listening to.

J. It's not so much what the concepts are but what the citta is in terms of whether it's kusala or akusala.

M. Can you say that when the thinking thinks it's always about concepts or when the mind understands that the concepts are concepts and not realities then it's kusala thinking?

J. We often say that one cannot know the quality of the citta by the situation.

M. Right what's the indication of the kusala thinking, what is the nature of the thinking in that case.

Sun. I think that's a really good question for Tan Ajahn.

Su. It's just daily life, because we heard about the development of understanding, the development of satipatthana, but no conditions enough, to be there at any moment, so very often. That's why what prolongs the understanding to [remain at] such level is lobha, ditthi and mana, that's all very natural, no matter when, it's there. Even sotapannas, they have different accumulation, that's why some can become sakadāgāmi very soon, and some need more lives to, depending on conditions, and what is that which is... that you call papañca delays the enlightenment, not so very soon as other because of these, lobha, ditthi and mana, even right now, or when we enjoy so much about this and that, at that moment, what about conditions for right understanding, when it's not developed enough, but when it's there it has to be unexpected, it means that there's less and less attachment, because of pañña is there strong enough, not to mind at all at what moment or what object, by conditions. So the understanding of no self, anatta and suññata is firmer, more confident and clearer, stage by stage.

That's why one can understand one's own accumulation, no one can do because actually all's by conditions, depending on conditions, and pañña develops on and on, develops all degrees of paramis, because without parami what can condition more understanding, of this very moment, it has to be this very moment, how much understanding is there, because when there is no understanding at this moment, how can there be understanding at the other moment, in the future, it has to be developed from this very moment too. That's why, listen with understanding, and it's there to condition more and more understanding later.

When we talk about dreaming or fantasy world, it means the world which is not the moment of enlightenment yet, that's all. It must be dream, like a dream, just like a dream, because not understanding the truth of this very moment. That's why we can understand what is meant in Tipitaka, about illusion or fantasy or nimitta or false: it's not true, because it does not appear as it is, until moment of understanding it when it appears. That is beginning to wake up, until it's fully woken up. The dream ends, so life ends, exactly the same, but the processes and the bhavangas are there from moment moment, that's all in life, but as long as there still are the words of truth, there can be moment of considering wisely, to understand the truth of what is there now, beginning to develop the understanding, of that which usually appears as something, but when there's less attachment, to the nimitta of things, there can be moment of beginning to develop understanding of just one characteristic of a reality, no matter it is rūpa, we don't have to say it, because it's characteristic appears as that, visible object only, until it's only visible object. It doesn't mean trying so hard to make it appear as that, but the understanding that actually it's only nimitta, in one's life in a day, in a moment, in each moment, when they do not appear as they are, as different moments of experiencing an object, through eyes and then mind-doors, and then ears and then... On and on, and bhavangas in between, endlessly, until nāma and rūpa appears as it is.

As so true that it's not there anymore, just there, no thing at all, when there's no mind-door process, and this life will be forgotten when there's next life, completely gone, isn't that just like a dream?

Suk. Ajahn, in the case of ariya even in thinking with tanha and māna there's also the possibility of understanding in between they're not lost in proliferation, not like in a dream as when we sleep.

Su. No wrong understanding anymore, but it's carried within by the accumulation of lobha and other kilesa. To understand that when it's not enlightenment yet it must be just like a dream, believing that the dream is so true, while one hasn't woken up yet.

Sa. We read in the text that citta, consciousness is like an illusion, maya, because it doesn't have any substance or core and it can't be grasped, it's gone instantly by the time lobha arises. So it's the illusion that takes it for being something or my experience, so the enlightened one no longer has the illusion of something there or someone.

Su. And this is the value of studying Dhamma, the truth of whatever is there now. Waking up from the dream of nimitta and illusion.

[...]

Sundara: It seems, Tan Ajahn, that it's easy to be enslaved by ignorance.

 

A. Sujin: That is paticca samuppada (dependent origination), how come the world into being, on and on and on? Because of ignorance. It's there by conditions, but no one knows. Only by conditions is there, even when it appears at moment of seeing, by conditions, while the other realities cannot appear as visible object which is seen at all, so true. Enslaved by attachment and ignorance, it seems it's there, and thinking about it, even in dreams. At moment of dreaming, is there no ignorance? Marking, taking that dream as what? As something all the time. And actually, even right now, it's the the stream of bhavangas interrupted by a process and then bhavangas again and again, only that in life, from life to life, no more, not permanent even [more than] one moment at all. So it's just like a dream, we take what is not there as it's still there, like a dream.

 

Sun. Dreams seem so very real, Tan Ajahn.

 

Su. Because of ignorance, but at moment of dreaming there is the idea of something, right? We dream about people and things, and at this moment, even what is there now, actually seen, actually heard, but is it as it is or not as it is, that it's gone? So the difference is between when it is the mind-door process, when we call it a dream, there's no sense-door process in between, to follow it, to take it for something, while in a dream there's no sensuous object, no experiencing of seeing and hearing at all, but it's there in memory, just taking it... even in a dream, in memory ...that is still there, so that is sañña vipallasa. Ditthi vipallasa, at moment of ditthi vipallasa there must be sañña vipallasa and citta vipallasa, all there. And this is so true in life, each moment, which is not known until the Buddha teaches about it. And who knows when will there be a moment of listening to the truth about this anymore, who knows? All are conditions. So this is the best moment to develop understanding, or for a moment of understanding to develop.

Sun. And sometimes Tan Ajahn, I think that when there's no hearing of the Dhamma or when there's another life those moments to me would seem rather scary.

 

Su. Because of understanding what is very worthy and precious, and that is understanding, no one, understanding the truth.

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Video image: Detail of the north gate at Sanchi stupa ("18 foreigners worshiping a stupa... Their clothing may suggest they are Greek" link)