Roga, beginning to learn about the very serious sickness

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(Excerpt from the EN-CN Dhamma discussion with Ajahn Sujin on Zoom on Sun Nov 6th 2022.
Reflections on the Bhudda's Teachings in Magandiya Sutta, Majjhima Nikaya #75 of the Pali Tipitaka.)

[Vincent] Ajahn, would you like to comment (about Pal's lost and found/new cat).

[A. Sujin] Yes, just talk about the truth, to understand what one takes for something: I or things like cat or I. Isn't now everyone sick? What's the answer? The truth is the answer.

[Pal] Yes, we are sick.

[A. Sujin] So, would you like to see the doctor, to get the medicine for the disease or sickness? [Yes]

Okay, that's why, in order to go to the doctor, if one doesn't know that one is sick, would one go to see the doctor? [No]

So the truth is that no one realizes that one is always sick of a different kind of disease, [not] covid or cancer or anything, but the symptoms are not strong enough to be known.

In the old days at the time of the previous Buddha, He talked about sickness and those people understood what he meant, but as time went by on and on, people just took sickness as when one has to go to see the doctor, when one has some disease like covid or cancer. So now we begin to learn about the very serious sickness. Khun Jonothan, please translate this for me:

Ārogya paramā lābhā. Lābhā, fortune, [see MN75 Magandiya Sutta]

[Jonothan] Freedom from disease is the highest fortune.

[A. Sujin] We understand [what is meant] by roga, but usually people take roga for disease, conventional one, but in truth what is the worst roga?

[Jonothan] Well, it would be ignorance.

[A. Sujin] That's why if people do not have any understanding of the truth they just take serious illness as roga. That's why it's not just the bodily disease, but it has to be the mental disease, more difficult to cure. Ignorance cannot understand the truth, no matter it's very little or very strong. For example, is there disease now, weak or strong? Mental disease, not bodily disease, see, who knows the disease right now? So very deep, so the question can be asked again and again to find out the truth, to realize the truth, if there's no question at all, can there be the considering of the truth to answer the question? So now the question is: would you like to have less or more attachment to whatever is seen as cat or dog? More or less attachment, that would you like to have? More or less attachment to that which is seen?

[Pal] Would like to have less attachments.

[A. Sujin] Really? So, if this is so, when the cat is lost, can there be less sorrow, sadness? Than before. You had sorrow, but after hearing the truth, wouldn't you like to have less sorrow, or same as before?

[Vincent] Pal said initially she wanted to have less attachment, less sorrow, but gradually understanding the teaching she's not thinking about wanting to have a less attachment or less sorrow because at that moment of wanting itself is attachment.

[A. Sujin] So, she just lives as usual, as normal, going on with attachments, strong or weak, depending on conditions, no idea of what is so dangerous, what is the sickness in life. Life is full of ignorance and attachment, should it be just like that on and on and on and more and more and more? [Wouldn't] she like to have moments of joy instead of sickness, loosing her cat or having the cat again, and not just only the cat, what about the other dear ones and the other dear things in life? So, she'd like to have gains and losses all the time, and usually people just want to have gains, not losses. And what about clinging to the being right now as I, never less at all, more and more and more, is that the point of listening to the truth? To understand the truth that actually what is there is the illness, the sickness of each moment.

And it's not just only the cat, it is every moment right now: lost, fallen away. So what is the greatest loss? Only losing the cat or things or life? Each moment nothing can stay at all, it's gone. Would you like to have this instead of just loosing the cat? Lost, each moment of life, what about losing the seeing and losing the cat? What's the answer? It doesn't matter because no one knows that now one is losing everything which is there just very briefly. Isn't this true, absolutely? That's why ignorance is there, not understanding anything at all, no matter it is gain or loss, someone or dear one or just one's own possession and so on.

What about just watching a movie, is that lie realized or is it just a moment of thinking? It seems like the story of everything and everyone is there, known at moment of seeing, watching it, but what about now, is it different? And this is the beginning of reflecting [on] what is there, more subtle. Who knows that the sickness of ignorance is always there, no matter watching TV, or cinema or now, exactly the same: moments of seeing hearing smelling tasting touching and thinking only. Not permanent at all, it's I who has a loss, who has no cat anymore or I have it again, always I. So, what is true, I or reality? A moment of experiencing an object.

So now are you interested to talk about the cat or about this moment? To understand what is meant by sickness, roga in Pali, ignorance, and what is [the] medicine to cure it. What about the truth: no I and no cat, in truth. We would rather think about problems and would like to solve the problems, but the problem is the ignorance of the moment of thinking about problem, or of the moment of thinking about solving that problem. Without understanding the danger of ignorance that brings about dissatisfaction of whatever is now appearing, there can be no interest to understand the truth of what is there in life. Just being overwhelmed with what is there in life as things and people, while after death or at moment of death, are there things and people and life around? Or only the absolute truth is there at that very moment, from moment to moment.

Ignorance cannot let go of any attachment to what is there because it cannot understand its truth. It's just under its power or influence, but there is the way to be safe from the ignorance and attachments, not to be under its power anymore, little by little, not to be enslaved. It's the moment of beginning to know the value, the preciousness of understanding the truth of this moment which can be developed little by little to realize the truth, the absolute truth, of what is there as it is. Even at moment of being sad or happy, it can be known, rather than being enslaved again and on and on by ignorance and attachment. Because the truth is there now but it's so very deep to understand it, it can be understood, its nature, little by little, by very very wise considering or careful considering about what is there as it is. If there's no interest to understand what is there now as seeing or hearing or thinking, it's impossible to understand the truth of that which is there now because it's gone instantly, unknowingly. Is it enough just hearing that it's there, arising and falling away, no thing and no one at all, is that enough? And this can be the question for everyone.

[Vincent] So understanding understands what is there and Pal's question is how does that work.

[A. Sujin] Now the truth is there, seeing sees, right? Seeing is now seeing, what is its real nature? Just the word, what does it mean?

[Pal] The nature of seeing is to experience, nama.

[A. Sujin] Can it be changed? [No]

So, can seeing be someone? [No]

And this is the beginning of parami, being truthful to the truth, to understand its nature as: it is conditioned to arise to see, that's all. It, not anyone, it, it sees. At moment of seeing a cat: it sees or I see?

[Pal] It sees.

[A. Sujin] Seeing's always forgotten, about its truth, and is it a cat which is seen?

[Vincent] Pal would like to hear more about what you, Ajahn, said, that every moment cannot stay, so moment after moment it's also a loss.

[A. Sujin] At moment of hearing, can hearing see? [No]

So, different moments or same moment, seeing and hearing?