Kaya and the idea of body

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(Excerpt from the English-Viet Dhamma discussion with Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket on Zoom (Sun Jan 1st 2023). Suitable for beginners.)

00:00 - When understanding the truth there are no doubts about its words
[Hang] She would like to ask about nama-kaya and rupa-kaya.

[A. Sujin] I think that when there is the understanding of the truth of reality there cannot be any doubt about the truth by different words and different points of explanation.

00:29 - Kaya: not just only one reality
For example, when there's the understanding that nothing can arise alone at all, what arise together, they are there together, it's kaya: not just only one reality. One reality cannot be the other reality [arising] together, but at any moment of whatever arise: they are together and that is the meaning of kaya, no matter it is nama-kaya or rupa-kaya. We can use the term body according to its meanings in different languages: the body of the sea, the ocean or the body of such and such as Khun Jonothan's just explained. So it just means that there isn't only one single reality there: when we talk about heat we mean just heat, but there isn't only heat there, but also other rupas arising together in a unit, in a kalapa. So what is there as a whole is kaya, no matter nama or rupa.

01:49 - The idea of body, all the time
And why is there kaya-anupassana-satipatthana? Because there is the idea of body all the time: my body, anyone's body, it's not a tree or in a plant. But what is the truth of the whole of what you take for body? There must be many many groups of rupa. So, when we talk about group it means kaya: the collection or what is there, together.

So, what is the body? Where are you now? Where's your body? Is there any body? What has been taken for body in life is just that which is a collection or what is there in a group when just one reality appears. It doesn't mean that it's only just that one, but there are other realities, rupas, arising together, they are there together, to understand the truth of what we take for body is this moment now. Is there anybody? The answer is the understanding of what is taken for body.

So kaya-anupassana-satipatthana is the truth of what is taken for body or what are there together as rupas, so it reminds to think about the truth, is there body now? So, what's the answer?

[Hang] No, there's no body.

03:37 - Letting go of the idea of body
[A. Sujin] When there is the understanding of what is there as a reality there is no idea of body, but in truth it's not as easy as that at all, to let go of the idea of body. So, in truth we take the whole body from head to toe as the body, but in truth, at moment of understanding kaya, that which is there, is so very little: just a reality is experienced at moment of being aware of what is taken for body.

04:17 - Kaya-anupassana-satipatthana: what is there?
So, what can be known is right now... is there body? So, in order to understand kaya-anupassana-satipatthana, what is there? In order to have the precise understanding of the truth there must be a characteristic of that which is taken for the body from head to toe. When there's no touching at all, can there be moment of thinking about the body? But the idea of body is quite very very deeply rooted, even it seems like we're not thinking about it, but the idea of it is still there. That's why at moment of beginning to understand the truth of what is there, which is the object of the direct experience, it can be known as: it's just a reality, it cannot be taken for body or hand or leg at all.

Only one reality of that group can appear as the object

So it begins from understanding the truth of: actually whatever arises has to be a composition or a collection of many rupas arising together, but only one reality of that group can appear as the object. So, it's time to find out the truth, whether the body is there or the body can never be there at all, to let go of the idea of self gradually, very little at a time.

05:59 - The idea of "my body" is there, deeply rooted
When hearing about the truth of realities there can be the understanding, intellectual understanding, that there's no-body, but deeply rooted: what is there? The idea of my body is still [there] on and on and on, until the understanding of what is there, little by little, gradually, lets go of the idea of my body or anyone's body, the same. So, in order not to have wrong view of self or body, what can be known to let go of the idea of "my body" or "the body"? So, what's the answer?

[T. Tam] Understanding...

[A. Sujin] Understanding what?

[Hang] Reality as it is...

06:52 - Understanding what is taken for body to let go of the idea of body
[A. Sujin] In order to let go of the idea of self there has to be understanding of what is taken for self, otherwise there cannot be kaya-anupassana-satipatthana. So, it has to be the moment of understanding what is taken for body, to understand the truth of what is taken for body, in order to let go of the idea of body. And it doesn't just mean the body from head to toe, but the body of anything: the body of a box, the body of such and such, microphone and so on. It's the understanding of the truth, that in truth there is no-one no-thing no-person at all, only different realities conditioned to arise and fall away all the time unknowingly, from birth to death and birth again and death again on and on and on.

07:51 - Rupa-kaya: not just only this body
Understanding rupa-kaya: not just only this body, right? Is there a microphone, the body of a microphone, the body of a human being, the body of a cat or dog? And this is the understanding of the absolute truth as no one and no thing at all. Is the body nama-kaya? Rupa-kaya? When is the body it means rupa, not nama. And when a rupa appears at what we take for arm or leg, the truth is that it cannot be the body, it is only the reality which is hard or soft, hot o cold. And this is the understanding of what we say for the world, the whole world or any world: whatever arises is a world.

So, does the body arise? The answer? [No, Ajahn.] That's it, understanding whatever is taken for a body or anything: shape and form as different things or different shapes and forms as different beings: cat or dog or human being, all are the same realities, the absolute realities the world of the truth of what is there appearing, it's just that which is conditioned to arise and then fall away, all the time.

09:34 - Rupa-kaya: when it's not the body anymore
So, when it's not the body what is it? The answer...? Rupa-kaya, see... Anything whatever appears, a rupa is there with other rupas, arising together as kaya, but just one characteristic appears as it is, but in truth when we talk about reality it is rupa-kaya: many rupas are rising together, they are there together, but what appears is only one characteristic. What is there appearing as hot or cold or whatever smell or taste, a kind of rupa, but for that rupa to be there there must be other rupas arising together to be there and that unit is kaya, rupa-kaya. So, no doubt about what is meant by rupa-kaya: the truth of what is there as rupa-kaya or nama-kaya.

The understanding of the truth of dhammas can bring about the understanding of what is there in words, different ones like rupa-akaya nama-kaya, the meaning of kaya. Is there any question about rupa-kaya and nama-kaya?