Chanda, interest in that which is there appearing

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(Excerpt from the EN-VN Dhamma discussion with Ajahn Sujin on Zoom - Sun Feb 19th 2023 pm)

0:00 - Is there chanda now?
[Hang] Could you please differentiate between lobha and chanda, thank you very much.

[A. Sujin] Many realities are there now, unknown, but we can begin to understand what are there. Otherwise there must be "I" of that which appears in a day. Is there some time in the day that chanda is there, appearing? Unknown, but it's there. But when it's not there, we talk about it. For example, is there chanda now? For you or anyone, to understand it. No one can tell what chanda is there for the others, but for oneself, is there any chanda in the day? So, think about it, is there any chanda in a day, today, can anyone tell? [Yes] So, do you know the moment when there's chanda? Or now you're thinking about [if there] is anything you're interested in? And in truth chanda is there arising, so very weak, not clear enough, to be understood that it's the moment of having chanda, interest, interest in that which is there, appearing.

1:43 - Chanda, interested in the object that lobha is attached to
For example, at moment of getting dressed, is there any chanda? It's there unknown because the attachment or clinging or lobha is there, which can be known, but chanda is there [too], not easy to understand that is there, [that] which is not lobha, but it's chanda. But there must be chanda anytime [that] there is lobha, but chanda is not lobha at all, can chanda attach to the object? [No] But it's there, being interested in the object that lobha is attached to. So, what can be known in a day? Even the lobha which is there is not known, so what about chanda? It's there too but it's not lobha. Learning about chanda and lobha just to understand the truth that there are so many realities conditioned in a moment. What are there, all taken for I or something, but when there is the understanding of just one reality at a time it can begin to let go gradually, at moment of taking it for something.

3:13 - Talking about it in order to understand it when it's there
That's why, who knows the conditions for whatever will be the object of understanding? Because it hasn't arisen yet. Because now we just talk about it to understand the truth of it, in order to understand it when it's there. Otherwise, whether it's there now [or not], it's not known as it is because not enough understanding of the nature of it. That's why understanding the nature of anatta of what is there will condition [the] moment of understanding what is there, unexpectedly because it hasn't arisen yet. Understanding chanda, understanding lobha, to know that whatever is there cannot be taken for anything at all because as soon as it's there it's gone, never to arise again.

4:08 - Just the idea of the truth
Study Dhamma with understanding of no-one, no-thing, all are anatta, uncontrollable, what is clung to now... gone, never to arise again. And it's just the idea of the truth but the truth is there, ready to be known when time comes, after hearing again and again, letting go of the clinging to that with ignorance because of a little more understanding of letting go. At that very momement, by then, it's chanda without lobha, but when chanda arises [with] lobha it's very difficult to understand the difference between the two. But when chanda is there without lobha, it can be known that it's interested to understand the truth of no one, anatta.

5:07 - The way to have chanda without lobha
Not the I who studies and who understands, but there's no I at moment of understanding the truth of whatever is there, little by little. Otherwise how can there be a moment just letting go, even it's so very weak, little, at moment of understanding that, even now, what is there... gone. But this kind of understanding is not firm enough until it understands the characteristic of that which is now appearing as it is, one by one, little by little. And this is the way to have chanda without lobha, at moment of listening to Dhamma, otherwise we just talk about it but it cannot be the way we've talked about.

[Tam B] That's very helpful. Thank you very much, Ajahn.

[A. Sujin] [It's] so very long to develop understanding, to be [able to] directly experience what is there, as we have heard for so long, again and again and again. Until time comes, conditions are ready for that very moment to begin to understand clearer, a little clearer, and pañña knows, it's different from moments when it's not clear.