No chanda with ahetuka-cittas and with pure moha-mula-cittas

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(Excerpt from the EN-CN Dhamma discussion with Ajahn Sujin on Zoom - Sun Feb 26th 2023 am - 3rd part -)

0:00 - No chanda with ahetuka-cittas
[Vincent] Da Zhuang was reading the text talking about chanda (the cetasika, mental factor, of interest) of the different kinds of citta including the supramundane, the magga cittas, they have also chanda, so what's the interest of these chanda then?

[A. Sujin] We understand citta as much as we can, for example seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, does chanda arise with any of these cittas? [No.] Why not?

[Vincent] Because they're ahetuka vipaka cittas (resultant consciousness without roots).

[A. Sujin] [Just] the words... Because no choice, no matter one is interested to have it arising or not, it is there by conditions, as the result of kamma. And what about citta arising before seeing, does it arise with chanda? [No.] That's why we learn to understand the conditions for whatever arises, what arises and what does not arise with chanda, why not... because all ahetuka cittas cannot arise at will because [they] all depends on kamma, it's time for kamma [to produce its result], for such vipaka to arise. That's why no chanda, no interest for anyone to arise, but it has to arise by conditions.

So now, as much as we are talking about citta, how many cittas do not arise with chanda? As we are talking [about], just what we are talking about, citta. How many, now?

[Vincent] Da Zhuang was mentioning 69 cittas [out of 89] have chanda.

[A. Sujin] So, all 18 ahetuka cittas do not have chanda arising with them, right? [Right.] And what more? Little by little, understanding what is there in life. Now, chanda does not arise with 18 ahetuka cittas, right? [Right.] and what else, what [other] cittas? More than just 18 which chanda does not arise with or it cannot arise with those cittas at all, little by little. At moment of seeing, is there chanda? [No.] After seeing has fallen away, sampaticchana (receiving consciousness) arises and just experience the same object, but it does not see, is there any chanda? [No.] Why not, why not?

[Vincent] Because it's vipaka citta.

[A. Sujin] Okay, it doesn't need chanda to be interest for it to arise at all because kamma conditions that reality, that citta and cetasikas, to arise to experience the object. That's why, how many citta do not arise with chanda?

[Vincent] He said 20.

3:46 - No chanda with pure moha-mula-citta
[A. Sujin] 20, right, what are the other two?

[Vincent] 2 moha-mula-cittas (consciousness rooted only in ignorance).

[A. Sujin] Why not?

[Vincent] Because moha-mula-citta has no interest about the object.

[A. Sujin] [Yes] because moha does not understand, doesn't have attachment or anything, pure moha-mula-citta. That's why there cannot be chanda arising with the two moha-mula-cittas.

4:15 - Can vipaka citta be very important?
So, this is life, so there can be the understanding of: seeing is so very short and it's [produced] by [past] kamma, it just arises to see, no more cetasikas: no interest and no lobha and no dosa, just to perform the function of seeing the pleasant or unpleasant object as the result of kusala or akusala kamma, that's all. So, is the vipaka citta very important?

[Vincent] It's not that important, the vipaka citta, it's there, it cannot do anything.

[A. Sujin] Why not, [why] it's just there and cannot do anything? [Because] only a moment of seeing and the other moment experiencing the same object of seeing and then gone never to arise again, [can it be] very important? So, with ignorance anyone just wants to have the pleasant vipaka, but what for? All depends on different kinds of vipaka.

5:25 - No one can change the characteristic of dhammas
[Vincent] His question actually is related to the difference between chanda and cetana because the intention and the interest seems a bit ambiguous to Da Zhuang.

[A. Sujin] But it depends on what kind of citta it arises with because cetana, intention, arises with each citta, but for chanda, it will not arise with the ahetuka-cittas.

[Vincent] Da Zhuang is confused when they are both there, the difference between chanda and cetana.

[A. Sujin] That's why we learn about each cetasika, to understand the absolute truth: no one can change the characteristic of dhammas. It's different by conditions too, different kinds of cetana, different kinds of chanda: kusala chanda, akusala chanda, whether it arises with vipaka or it arises with some vipaka, not every vipaka and so on. To understand the truth of: nothing can be taken for self or permanent thing at all. It's the world of whatever is conditioned to arise and then falls away instantly, sunññata, anatta, no-I and no-thing at all, nothing at all, not anything to be taken for this or that. So, is there any difference between the vipaka without hetus and the vipaka with hetus, with three hetus or two hetus? And so on... They are all conditioned by what is there now, from moment to moment, accumulated as paccaya, to condition next moment, no matter when and what life.

7:28 - Ukraine war, just at moment of thinking
And the understanding of the truth can condition moment of understanding what is there in Ukraine war and other wars or any situation. So now, what do you think about the Ukraine war? It's there just at moment of thinking, without thinking there is no war, no Ukraine, nothing at all, that state or that situation, is that true? So, the world goes on by different conditions, different thinking, but in truth there is no-one and no-thing at all. What is there is conditioned to arise and then falls away instantly, so, where is Ukraine war and any idea without thinking? And thinking a lot about Ukraine war and thinking about understanding what is there now, what is better?

8:32 - Just the idea of what appears as something
Even the moment of thinking about Ukraine or anything, that can be known, about its absolute truth. Not anyone, not anything, only the experiencing through the six doorways keeping on, by conditions, as long as there are conditions for whatever is arising, it has to arise and then falls away instantly. Isn't it so true, even right now? And, as it's so true, it can be known directly, when there's enough understanding, otherwise, it cannot appear to ignorance as the way it is. So what is there now seen, heard or thought about, it's not the way it is because it's the world of ignorance and attachment and the idea [of] just about whatever appears as something permanent all the time. But what is so true? All sankhara dhammas are anicca, all sankhara dhammas are dukkha and all dhammas are anatta, and that can be learned, about its truth, until it can be directly experienced. When time comes.