The three stages of pariyatti

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(Excerpt from the Dhamma discussion with Ajahn Sujin on Zoom - Mon May 29th 2023 - part 2)

00:00 - The three stages of pariyatti
[A. Sujin] There are three stages of pariyatti: pariyatti of the four noble truths and then it leads to patipatti, pariyatti of patipatti and pariyatti of pativedha: pariyatti at level of understanding what is there as the absolute reality arising and falling away. But [now] it is not the moment when it's there experiencing just one reality at a time, but we're learning to understand one reality at a time, but it's not the moment of understanding one [reality] at a time [yet]: the second stage of pariyatti [patipatti] of the four noble truths, the second round.

That's why there can be questions and answers and it seems like we enjoy and [have] piti about it, it's only understanding, the first level, intellectual understanding about what is there, in words, in thoughts. At moment of considering, understanding that seeing is not that which is seen, is seeing appearing? Or is the object which is seen appearing? Appearing to what? Ignorance, no understanding of the truth. That's why there can be doubt and there is doubt about this and that, all the time, as long as not enough understanding of, even intellectual understanding about it.

So, is there doubt only about moha-mula-citta or is there doubt about other cittas too? The same citta cannot be changed, it's the reality which is the chief of experiencing the object and can it be realized? If it's not realized the understanding [of] its object cannot be clear. So now, even what is there appears well, clear or not, if there are no words about the truth, the absolute truth, we think that it appears well, but in truth how can it appears well, it's gone all the time, without any understanding of any reality. Do you think that there can be understanding of moha-mula-citta without understanding citta? [No.] That's why just learn about the truth of one reality, so firm, about its characteristic, its function and when it's there it's the reality which hasn't been known yet, but just learning about it. And how come to realize the reality which is there? Not just [by] hearing and having confidence of the truth of it in words only. It needs sati. We learn to understand different realities little by little, otherwise the I is there trying so hard to know it, and when it's not the object of understanding it means that the understanding at level of intellectual understanding is not firm enough.

03:55 - Direct understanding with direct awareness of just one reality
[Tadao] Is it right to say that it's so hard to see realities as they are because they arise and fall away very quickly?

[A. Sujin] So, that's the answer, is it hard? So subtle, it's there all the time, unknown, what appears it's like nothing [is] arising and falling away at all, but in truth whatever arises falls away. So, can there be [the] moment of beginning to understand just one reality, to understand that each one is different, so [that] there can be direct understanding with direct awareness of just one reality. Why? To understand that it's not the other which, after this one has fallen away, would be... the future will be the present, when time comes and the present will be past. Why? When time comes. So very very rapidly.

And this is why all dhammas are so very subtle, without the enlightenment of the Buddha, how could there be any understanding or any right idea about them? Even there's birth and death, seeing, hearing, attachment and aversion, they are all there, unknown that they cannot be anything, they cannot be mine, they cannot belong to anyone because it's there just arising and falling away, no more, never to arise again, is that true? This is the first round of the four noble truths, is it true? [Yes.] So, there can be more confidence of reality as no one and no thing, the more understanding of any reality, the less ignorance and attachment there will be to that object. That's why knowing just one reality is not enough to let go, impossible because there is always ignorance of what is there by conditions, all the time, from life to life. Isn't it very subtle?

[Tadao] Yes, especially citta.

06:42 - Understand that there is seeing before understanding what seeing is
[A. Sujin] Okay, if you don't use the word citta at all, is there seeing right now? [Yes.] And is what is seen that which sees?

[Tadao] Seeing things, people.

[A. Sujin] Can people be seen?

[Tadao] No, they are concept, I know that.

[A. Sujin] It's not the word, but the truth.

[Tadao] But seeing doesn't appear as seeing.

[A. Sujin] So, learn to understand that there is seeing before understanding what seeing is because now there is seeing, so seeing is real, it's true it's now, right? But it's not known, what is seeing and what is that which is seen and this is ignorance. Without hearing about the truth can there be moment of beginning to attend to understand the characteristic of the seeing now, that it's a reality, it's real, it's that which sees, even it doesn't appear, as sound or sight or whatever because [it has] no shape, no form, it's a reality which experiences an object, no one can stop it, to not experience anything at all, but there is a reality right now, the proof is that it now sees, so it's there, a reality - a reality - sees, right? [Yes.] Without it, could there be the object which is seen appearing right now? [No.] And this is the subtlety, so subtle, of whatever is there, unknown from life to life, but there can be moments of hearing about the truth and considering, to understand that the truth is so very deep, even it's there, it does not show up, and when there's no hearing about it there cannot be the understanding or the idea of: there is a reality in life which arises and experiences whatever is there from moment to moment, as long as one is still alive.

So, it's there from birth, but at birth who knows the object of that which arises to experience an object? Even it's there, it has arisen, it experiences the object and then gone, unknown because it's not the object of this world which appears through six doorways, one at a time. So, at that moment it's there, life begins at birth because there is a reality which experiences the object and also other realities conditioned by the same condition to be just that from birth and it arises a falls away because whatever arises falls away, even right now, no one knows, but the truth is that: seeing is not hearing, it's not thinking it's not liking.

10:29 - It's there but it's not the object of understanding because it's gone
So, one reality appears at a time, from one to another, succeeding so very rapidly, that's why it covers up the truth of the impermanency of what is there now, arising and falling away, different ones by conditions. The sun is different from the star, from the tree, by conditions, so whatever, even the reality which arises to experience the object: also different by conditions. Moha-mula-citta, we use that word, it seems like there is the understanding of citta and moha and mula, but no understanding of its truth, just the word, it's there but it's not the object of understanding because it's gone.

That's why, learn to understand the truth, little by little, to have firm understanding of the truth, sacca parami, so firm, adhitthana parami, never change. The only way to understand what is there now is from hearing, considering and having firm confidence of the truth, never change. The first round of the four ariya sacca and learn to understand how it can appear, it is pariyatti of the patipatti, how it develops, little by little, until, after that, how can it appear as it is, the third round of the ariya saccas, otherwise we just keep on at level of thinking that it's there, not self. And how to understand the citta right now? There must be [the] moment of no attention to the object because beginning to attend to the reality which experiences the object right now, is that true? [Yes.]

12:53 - What level of pariyatti is it?
So, when there is the understanding of a reality like citta, no doubt, no matter it's moment of seeing or hearing and these are citta-anupassana-satipatthana, no matter what citta [is] experiencing what is there, the reality which is citta is there experiencing the object, no matter what the object is. Jhana, rupa jhana, and kusala and akusala, citta is there. And when there is attention to the citta, learning little by little, to know moments of attention, beginning to attend in order to understand a little more, a little more, right now. What level of pariyatti is it? So, that's the way to understand citta, not just talking about it.

[Tadao] There's also thinking involved but no true understanding of realities.

[A. Sujin] That's why learn to understand that what is there can be realized, the truth of it, little by little, one by one. Otherwise there cannot be understanding of the nimitta of the erasing and falling way of one characteristic of a reality. Is there moha-mula-citta now?

[Tadao] Yes, a lot.

[A. Sujin] See, only in thought, by thinking. As long as there's no understanding of citta and as long as there are still no direct experience, clearly, of the object, all akusala are still there, accumulated. But there and now moments of listening, considering, understanding little by little, the difference between pariyatti, first level... and the difference of that is understanding the difference between the first round and the second round of pariyatti. So very subtle, and only understanding the subtlety of Dhamma can let go of the idea or clinging to have [direct] experience of this or that, it's a dream: just thinking about it, no understanding of what is there now. So, it cannot lead to experience directly the truth of what is there, beginning to understand a little clearer, a little clearer, by different levels of pariyatti, patipatti, and pativedha.

16:12 - Citta just beginning to be the object of thinking
And without the foundation of understanding the truth, that right understanding has to develop gradually stage by stage and that's the only way to let go, beginning of letting go of desire or wishing, attachment to try to experience it, and understanding what's right and what's wrong. So, right understanding begins to be understanding [of] what is there as right or wrong, true or not. Different levels of pañña. So, be truthful to the truth and learn to understand a little more and understand the truth that this is the level of intellectual understanding about seeing right now, hearing right now, or any kind of citta right now, as long as citta doesn't show up because it's [just] beginning to be the object of thinking, considering, attending and being aware, little by little.

[Tadao] Yes, it requires a lot of patience, khanti.

[A. Sujin] And it's pañña which knows, see. And the more understanding of the truth... the enlightenment is quite far away because ignorance thinks that it's so close, very easily [reached], but in truth the more understanding the less expectation, less clinging, less wrong understanding. And this is the way to let go of ignorance and attachment and wrong understanding. So, it is the path leading to the four paths of ariya sacca. So now, what is there's still arising and falling away by conditions, it doesn't matter at all, no one can do anything, but understanding deeper can be condition to directly understand what is there, little by little.

19:11 - The wrong understanding to get or attain the truth without any understanding
Be truthful, to be confident of the truth, as parami, with viriya and khanti and nekkhama. So now, the right understanding is on the way, the subtle way, and it lets go [of] wrong understanding and attachment to get or to attain the truth without any understanding. And pañña is firmer now, and the more understanding, they are all moments of parami developing. And that is pañña, the development of moments of understanding, little by little, to understand more about seeing right now or anything when it's there because we have learned about it, to be able to understand the truth of it when it's there.

I appreciate your understanding of the truth.