The moment without seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and thinking

Excerpt from the EN-CN Dhamma discussion with Ajahn Sujin on Zoom on Sun Mar 30th 2025.

Mp3 audio: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EZPVsOMKKA-yxhVMOeW0NE_MfjgfDx2a

Seeing and thinking - taking what is there by shape and form as different things

[D. Zhuang: Intellectually, there are only dhammas. There are no beings, no "I", but just like for the car, there are the components coming together.]

A. Sujin: Isn't dhamma very subtle? So very subtle! That's why there should be truthfulness to the truth. Otherwise there can never be any understanding at all, of whatever is not appearing. So, what's the car? [The car is the car.]
Really? What is the nature, the reality of "car"? [The car can be cognized.]
At moment of seeing, is there any car? Just one moment of seeing, can there be a car at that moment? [No car at the moment of seeing, but still there is the idea of "there is this car".]
Only the idea, is that right? [I think there is something there and it can be cognized.]
Is there Da Zhuang? [It's just like the example of the car. There is this phenomenon of car.]
So, Da Zhuang is not a car, right? [Yes.]
Why Da Zhuang is not a car, at moment of seeing? [At the moment of seeing, there's no Da Zhuang, Da Zhuang is not a car because there's no other sense-door cognition together yet.]
So, there are so many moments: seeing, thinking, taking what is there by shape and form as different things, is that right? [Vincent: Da Zhuang said that this is where he's not clear.]
That's why - be truthful to the truth, the ultimate truth, at moment of seeing, is there Da Zhuang or is there car? Or what is there?

[Jonothan: I'm looking at a screen and I can see images of Vincent, Sarah, Than Ajahn and Pal with her kittens, but none of those things can be directly known, what can be directly known is just seeing and its object, visible object and the thinking about those things. So, there are the objects of the understanding that is the development of the path are different from conventional objects which do exist in the conventional sense, but they're not absolute realities.]

The moment without seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and thinking

[Vincent: Da Zhuang says that he understands now. Ajahn, are there any further comments you would like to make?]

[A. Sujin:] Yes. So, Da Zhuang now understands. What does he understand? [Da Zhuang says he understands the true nature of things are actually through the paramattha dhamma.]
Is there thinking now? [Yes.]
So, is there a moment without seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and thinking? [No.]
Really? At moment of being fast asleep, is there seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and thinking? [Right, there are such moments and no idea of what's happening, what's going on.]
What moment is that? [That's the moment of life-continuum, bhavanga citta.]
Is there the idea of a car or something at that moment? So, at moment of seeing, is there the idea of a car? [No.]
So, what is there at moment of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, thinking, or even when there are no such experiences? [Just that which is experienced, just the dhamma, the rupas.]
So, we have to understand each reality as it is, the nama cannot be the rupa at all, so what is there? [At those moments, there are the namas that experience.]
So, without THAT reality arising, there can never be anything at all. No car.

The base and foundation to understand whatever is there in life from moment to moment

So, in reality, in the ultimate truth, what are there? No matter here or there, heaven or hell, this world or other worlds, what are there? So, I think that we learn about everything to have more clear understanding of the truth of what is there, because it seems like that what we have heard is enough or true, but it's not yet the direct understanding of each reality as we have been talking about. So, no matter we talk about samatha or vipassana or anything, it is just - begin again and begin again to consider the truth, to realize the truth as we have studied and learned.

For example, the reality which experiences the object, it seems like no doubt about it, we have heard a lot, but what about the understanding of the truth of its nature, which is now appearing as we have learned? In order to have right understanding of the truth, just to let go of the wrong understanding that it's always something in life.

So, what's the point of talking about the car or the plate or the food or anything, or of seeing and hearing and of what is there now appearing? To understand the subtle truth of what is there, because it's there and gone instantly all the time. That's why discussion about the Dhamma is so very, very helpful to understand the truth a little more and a little more.

So, in order to understand dhammas as anatta - no matter what moment in life, from life to life, if nothing arises, can there be anything or something? And at moment of experiencing one doorway at a time, there cannot be any car arising and falling away. Can a car arise and fall away? See... [It's the dhammas that think about the car that arise and pass away.] That's why we can say what can be there appearing has to be through six doorways, one doorway at a time.

So, at moment of thinking about a car, what is real? [At a moment of thinking of cars, thinking is real, but the car is not.] That's why we learn to understand the arising and falling away, the impermanency of all kinds of dhammas which are conditioned to arise. To understand that in truth, actually there can never be any person or any thing at all. It's the base and foundation to understand whatever is there in life from moment to moment. No matter what we would talk about, samatha or vipassana or anything, just to understand what is real, what is the reality at that moment, not to take it to be someone or - I am developing or concentrating, samatha or vipassana. Otherwise, someone might just concentrate on samatha or vipassana, no understanding of the realities of that very moment at all. So, the foundation to understand the truth is understanding the reality as it is, one by one.

The Buddha teaches the ultimate truth that is there as He experienced it

Samatha is not anyone, what are there? [Samatha is like a raft to cross the river.] The river? River of what? [River of life.] What is life? Kusala? Akusala? [The river of birth and death.] So, how can we go across the river of births and deaths? [People like us or beginners need gradual steps.]

Only the understanding of the truth can wear away, little by little, ignorance as the sea of ignorance, from life to life, to reach the other side, understanding. Getting over there, without any ignorance left. And that is not samatha development, because samatha bhavana is different from vipassana bhavana.

That's why there can never be the understanding of the nature of what is there right now or anytime without considering the truth. When the Buddha teaches about any reality, the truth, the ultimate truth is there, as experienced by the Enlightened One. That's why there cannot be any understanding of realities without listening carefully, considering carefully, understanding very carefully about realities. So, is samatha a reality?

#Dhammahome source video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNOHsaSh_Nc

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