Studying Dhamma means understanding whatever is there in life
Dhamma discussion with Ajahn Sujin on Zoom on Sat Aug 30th 2025. (part 2)
Studying Dhamma means understanding whatever is there in life
[Sukin:] Than Ajahn, can you please help with Prakash' question about kamma and vipaka?
[A. Sujin:] If I answer, can he understand? Is that studying dhamma, wanting to know kamma and vipaka?
[Prakash:] I don't know, Ajahn.
[A. Sujin:] See, that's why even "I don't know", what is that? It's not known - I don't know, see; but now learning, studying dhamma means understanding whatever is there in life. Each moment can be understood, what is it? What is the ultimate truth of it? If you just want the answer for kamma and vipaka, can there be the understanding of right-now? [No.]
See, what is that which you call kamma and vipaka? See, no understanding; that's not the way, that's not the studying of dhamma!
So, people just get lost in words about dhamma; they think that they know, but not at all - because as soon as they're asked about this moment, no understanding whether kamma is there right now; what level of kamma; and what is the nature of kamma, what is the ultimate truth of kamma? No understanding! Just talking about kamma, and it seems like one knows about kamma, but in truth, not at all, until learning about what is there right now. Before - is there kamma or no kamma right now? Or - when it's moment of kamma, or - what level of kamma? See, all are dhammas, so very subtle. Is kamma a reality? [Yes.]
What kind of reality is it? If there is no firm confidence of dhamma, there cannot be the answer; just trying to answer, but how much understanding is there? None at all; not even a little because a little means - now is dhamma; so that there can be further understanding - what dhamma is now.
No understanding the virtues of the Buddha - no understanding of the truth
So, just talk about one reality at a time, otherwise they are all mixed - so complex - all in a moment, but in truth, in sub-moments, in very, very quick or rapid arising and falling away of many dhammas, unknown, right now. That's why - no understanding of the virtues of the Buddha because no understanding of the truth, which is so very deep. Begin again, begin again, begin again - it's the Word of the Teachings because only once, it cannot be clear: just a very, very short moment of understanding, and many, many moments of ignorance, attachment and all kinds of akusala, flowing on and on and on and on, covering up the truth, on and on and on. That's why there has to be confidence of the truth, is seeing known now? [Yes.]
No, it's just the word about seeing, not the seeing.
That's why without the word of the Buddha, there can never be the understanding of anything at all; when He said "seeing" - not just "seeing", but the explanation of what is there as seeing, so very subtle, because even we've talked about seeing many times now, is there any understanding of seeing right now? Because in order to understand it, it needs other stages or other levels of understanding, and other different realities arising with it and performing their functions very rapidly, to understand seeing. Nothing arises alone because even we're talking about seeing, there are other realities ariseing with seeing, conditioning seeing to see. Even seeing arises to see, but it needs the factors or the qualities of other realities to condition the seeing to see, how subtle it is.
That's why, don't just want to understand all about kamma and vipaka and paticca-samuppada and dhathu and so on, but understand how deep dhamma is.
Learning new habits to be the considerate, careful person
That's why it takes quite a long, long time - eons and eons of eons and eons - to understand the truth, that now seeing arises and falls away, is that true? If seeing does not arise, there is no seeing, but seeing is not there all the time; that's why it means that seeing arises to see and it's gone, and the other realities, hearing and so on, many, many different moments in a day, uncountable, unknown; until listening to the truth, carefully. So, we learn to be careful, the new habit, paccaya, nissaya-paccaya, the new habits, to be the considerate person.
Okay now, there is seeing, is there now a little more understanding of seeing? Be truthful to the truth. [Very little understanding.]
Okay, what is that little understanding of seeing? [Seeing sees its object.]
Seeing is real, anatta, not atta; the more understanding of the truth of reality, the more it is anatta, not anyone, not anything. [There is a little understanding, I think.]
See, is that enough, so that we can go on to other subjects? [I'm thinking so.]
Enough or not yet, about seeing? [No.]
Shall we go on to another thing, another matter, another subject? [We can continue on seeing only, Ajahn.] Until it can be firm confidence that seeing is not directly known yet; we're just learning to understand the beginning of dhamma, that seeing is real, whatever is real is a dhamma. Is seeing you or someone? [No.]
And that is the meaning of an-atta; no atta, not atta; all dhammas are anatta, is that true? [Yes.]
Okay, why? [There is no one who sees it, it is the dhamma with its conditions.]
What cannot arise alone or by anyone is sankhara-dhamma
Is there irritation? Is it real? [Yeah.]
Can it arise by itself or arise alone or by anyone? [It arises by its own conditions.]
That's it, whatever arises must have its proper conditions for its arising; so, whatever arises is sankhara-dhamma; so, what else is sankhara-dhamma? Whatever arises is conditioned by other realities, nothing can arise alone, nothing can arise by itself, nothing can arise by anyone at all. What cannot arise alone or by anyone is sankhara-dhamma, it needs other factors for its arising; for example, seeing cannot arise without the eye-base and the object which impinges on it, for example; it needs the conditions for its arising, it's sankhara-dhamma; so, whatever arises is sankhara-dhamma, so, we learn about the dhamma and the sankhara-dhamma.
What else is sankhara-dhamma now? [Hearing.] Yes, why?
So, is sound sankhara-dhamma? [It is dhamma.]
It's easy to say that it's a dhamma, but what about the understanding of dhammas, is it firm enough now? That's why we talk about all of them, to have firm understanding of one reality at a time, Dhamma! So, you have the understanding that sound is dhamma; why sound is dhamma? [It is real.]
At what moment? [At the moment it is heard.]
That's it; so, if it does not arise, can it be real? [No.]
Can it arise at will? [Yes.] Does sound has will to arise, or what? Just sound, no connection with hearing, we're just talking about sound to understand sound a little more. Because there's sound heard all day, but what is sound? Is it real? [Yes, Ajahn].
Why is it real? At what time it's real? [When it is heard, it is real.]
When it arises, it's real; what conditions it to arise? [See.]
No one can understand the truth of anything at all; no thought about it at all, just living with attachment and ignorance and all kinds of kusala and akusala and kamma and vipaka, as you said, but no understanding of the truth. But now we're beginning to understand the very subtle truth, that it takes quite a long time to have a very firm confidence of the truth, to understand the truth of each word. Sound is sound, it's there, arising; when it's heard, it has arisen - by conditions, right? [Yes.]
Without conditions, can anything arise? But the conditions for sound to arise, we haven't talked about it yet.
The Buddha taught about the truth of everything to have confidence of the truth
That's why we learn to have firm confidence, at first that what is real is that which appears, and when it appears, it has conditions for its arising to appear. Little by little, having firm confidence of each word, can anything arise without conditions? [No.]
So, does sound arise by conditions? [Yes, Ajahn.]
But the conditions for sound - we haven't talked about it yet, but there must be conditions for whatever arises. That's why the Buddha taught about the truth of everything, to have confidence of the truth of that which is there, as it really is - so very short and gone.
Is sound hearing? [Sound is not hearing.]
What is the difference? [The difference is that hearing is nama, and sound is rupa, it cannot experience anything, or it cannot hear anything.]
What else is rupa? [Hardness.]
What else? Can it be the table? [Hardness, table is idea.]
Is it easy to say it? [This is not understanding the dhamma.]
So, at the moment of touching, what is touched? [The hardness is touched.]
Not the table, right? So, what is real? [The hardness is real.]
Okay, so now learn to understand the ultimate truth of the nama and the rupa.
So, one moment again, now, what moment would you like to talk about? [Seeing.]
Okay, good, don't get away from seeing now; seeing is the moment of a reality arising to see; can it think? [No.]
Is it "I'm seeing now"? What is right and what is wrong - I see or seeing? ["I see" is naming.]
"I see", no naming, only "I'm seeing now" is wrong. And what is right? ["Seeing sees" is right.]
From now on, not "I see" in truth, but "seeing sees", is that right? [Yes.]
So, no I at all; so now, not "I see", but "seeing sees" is the understanding at level of intellectual understanding because it's not moment [of direct understanding].
So, understanding the different degrees, different levels of the three rounds of the Four Noble Truths; is that right? And that which is seen cannot experience anything, isn't that right, understanding? [Yes.] What round of the ariya-saccas? [First round.]
The first round, so now, the seeing right now, the hearing right now is real, but there is still the idea of "I see" because it hasn't been eradicated yet.
Right understanding understands that right understanding is not anyone
So now, consider - understanding the truth that seeing is a reality, is that right understanding? [Yes.]
Is it you who understand? [It is not me who understands it.]
So, what is it? [Isn't it pañña?]
You call it pañña, but we're talking about understanding, so, what did you say before? Shall we talk about it a little more? Seeing is not anyone, right? [Yes.]
So, is it right understanding or not? [Yes, it is right understanding.]
So, understanding that seeing is not I or anyone, seeing is just a reality arising just to see, is that right? [Yes, Ajahn.]
So, at that very moment, is it you who has right understanding? [No.]
So, is understanding real? Is it a reality? [Yes.]
Is it wholesome? [Yes, it is wholesome.]
Is it nama or rupa? [It is nama.]
Okay, so understanding is not you, right? [Yes.]
And when you say, "I see", "it is me who sees", is it right? [Wrong.]
So, it's wrong understanding you? [Yes. No, wrong understanding is also not me.]
See, that's why we talk about dhammas in all their aspects, to have firm confidence of the truth.
So, for understanding, a reality, it cannot be just understanding, it has to be either right understanding or wrong understanding, is that right? Is wrong understanding you? [No.]
Is right understanding you? [No.]
If it's not you, what is it? [Dhamma?]
Is wrong understanding real, is it a reality? [Yes.]
So, right understanding is not you either, so, it's right understanding which understands that right understanding is not anyone, is that right? So, right understanding is a reality, right? [Yes.]
So, we're now learning about other realities, not just only seeing and that which is seen; we learn about whatever in life, what is there is real, but it is different by conditions. So, right understanding - isn't it not you? [Hmm.]
So, what is it? It's not you, what is it, what is right understanding? Is it real? [Yes.]
Is it a reality, since it's real? [Yes.]
So, what kind of reality is it? So, now we're talking about dhammas and we talk about the two kinds of dhammas, one experiences the object, nama-dhamma, and the other does not experience any object, rupa-dhamma. So, is understanding real? [Yes.]
Is it a reality? [Yes.]
Is it dhamma? [Yes.]
What kind of dhamma is it? [Nama-dhamma.]
Understanding the difference between citta and cetasikas
So, we learn about the nama-dhammas, more than just seeing; what is there in life is dhamma, different dhammas, but no matter how much difference there is, it has to be just nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma; can nama-dhamma be rupa-dhamma? [No.]
Can rupa-dhamma experience the object? [No.]
So, there is citta, the chief reality of experiencing an object; for example, seeing arises just to see or just to experience that which is seen - clearly; what does it mean, the chief of experiencing? It means that there must be other kinds of realities which experience the object, but not as the chief of experiencing. So, there are two kinds of nama-dhamma: the one which experiences the object clearly, we use the word citta, it just arises to experience the object clearly; it cannot like, it cannot dislike, it cannot remember, it cannot feel; its function is just to arise to experience the object clearly, citta.
The other reality which is nama, arises to experience the object, but not as the chief of experiencing the object, but it has its own quality, its own characteristic; it experiences the same object that citta experiences because it arises with citta; the citta cannot arise without cetasikas - for the reality which arises and experiences the object, but not as a chief, we use the word cetasika. I am sure you have heard a lot about citta, cetasika, and rupa, but in order to really understand the difference between citta and cetasikas - there is only one reality which is the chief of experiencing, and the other reality experiences the same object, arises together with citta, experiences the same object, but is not citta, because it has its own quality, its own characteristic; it experiences the object by way of being attached to that object which appears, because it also experiences the object, but not as the chief, but as soon as it experiences the object, it is attached to that object, because its quality, its characteristic is that of attaching to whatever is there; and that reality, the word for it is lobha cetasika, is it clear now?
Mp3 audio file: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XdBCtyKr_fa72WUugryqx6sOauxybKDu
#Dhammahome source video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJAP_ZSzzJ8