The shame of not yet knowing lobha as nama
Excerpt from the Dhamma discussion with Ajahn Sujin in Kuru, India, on October 18th 2005.
Pariyatti: the Teachings that help one understand the reality now appearing
[Nina:] Because he said that truthfulness is such a difficult parami because you may mislead yourself.
[A. Sujin:] So what's the purpose of studying and listening to the Teachings and realities? When there is understanding of reality, can that be the wrong path?
[Sarah] It's very difficult to know whether it's right or wrong.
[A. Sujin] It is not the word that we are trying to say, whether it's wrong or right path, but it's the understanding of realities. Whenever there is understanding of realities, can we say that that is wrong or the wrong path?
So it's not just the words to say whether it's wrong or right. It's just thinking conditioned by pariyatti understanding. It depends on what one knows about pariyatti — and pariyatti is not the words. Pariyatti means the Teachings that help one understand the reality that is now appearing.
No need to think in words — just get used to that characteristic as a reality
[Sukin] Right, and whatever appears now conditions thinking. And it may be just a vague understanding.
[A. Sujin] When it's right, even it's vague, it's right. For example, when there is the understanding that this moment right now is a dhamma with the characteristic of a reality, that cannot be wrong because it's true. [It has to appear to sati, a characteristic.]
That moment of thinking is right thinking. So that's why there should be the understanding of moments with satipatthana and without satipatthana. Otherwise, it's just talking about the four satipatthana without developing satipatthana because of not understanding the characteristic of satipatthana.
[Sarah] And here we are in Kuru where the Satipatthana Sutta was taught.
[A. Sujin] Because it's not just about hearing or thinking, but about direct experiencing too. I think that it's called satipatthana because everything is satipatthana. No matter it is kaya, vedana, citta or dhamma. And there are dhammas right now, satipatthana right now. So the Satipatthana Sutta includes everything which is real.
[Sukin] It's better to know the difference between nama and rupa.
[A. Sujin] To understand their different characteristics. That which cannot experience anything is here and now — the visible object cannot understand anything. But we don't have to think in words at all. Just getting used to that characteristic as a reality. That's all.
The shame of not yet knowing lobha as nama
[Sarah] Higher wisdom can really see the danger of akusala.
[A. Sujin] It depends on the level of pañña because, for a person who is developing right understanding to become a sotapanna, no time to know whether that is kusala or akusala because the manasikara with pañña is attending just to the characteristic of nama which is not self. Lobha is there, but there is no attention to lobha as lobha, only as a reality — just a reality.
[Jonothan] Ajahn, you said "lobha is there, but..." could you explain?
[A. Sujin] Because, you see, that person doesn't yet know the characteristics of nama and rupa very clearly, and realities arise and fall away so fast, even it's lobha, but the characteristic of not-my-lobha, not-myself but just-a-reality.
So pañña of that level just attends the characteristic of nama. Even it is lobha, it doesn't mind at all whether it is lobha or dosa. Just that characteristic of nama is there, being known that it's not self, just a reality. No attention to the characteristic of lobha as lobha; or to what kind of vedana is there, things like that...
For example, this is hard, do we have to say anything? Because hardness arises and falls away before we can measure it, whether it's this level or that level, but pañña is just beginning to attend to the characteristic of no-self-in-there. That's all. In order to be able to differentiate the characteristic of nama from rupa, so it can appear without doubt, without avijja at all. [I would have thought that lobha should be known as lobha.]
When it's known as lobha, there would be shame of lobha because at that moment it has already understood lobha as a nama. Better than that, deeper than that, subtler than that - so there can be shame. But at that level, there can only be shame for not yet knowing lobha as nama. That's why before becoming sakadagami or anagami, there must be the understanding of reality, no matter whether it's lobha, dosa or anything. Nobody can change that, but the attention is just there, beginning to know or to get closer to the characteristic of nama as a reality.
[Sukin] With the understanding of dhammas, there are many levels of knowing them.
[A. Sujin] Otherwise, there would only be Arahatta. For example, we are talking about nama and dhamma now, but it depends on whether pañña arises with satipatthana or not, and when it arises, whether it's just at the beginning or more advanced, to understand quicker. See, it depends.
Satipatthana: much more than just knowing by words or by thinking
[Sarah] You said adhisīla is satipatthana. Does that mean that adhicitta and adhipañña are also satipatthana?
[A. Sujin] And at the same time because there cannot be adhisīla without adhicitta. And we can see the difference between the moment with satipatthana, that it is different from other moments. That's why it is adhisīla, adhicitta and adhipañña, through direct awareness. [And when you said adhisīla and indriya samvara sīla... when it is satipatthana.]
It can be fulfilled at moment of lokuttara to be adhisīla, adhicitta and adhipañña. But before that there must be moments of development too.
[Sukin] So knowing metta as metta is also adhisīla?
[A. Sujin] As not-self. [Is that adhisīla?]
When it is satipatthana. It is much more than just knowing by words or by thinking. So one can see the moment of being directly aware.
[So adhisīla is not a reference to sīla as we know it.]
Because it is the self who has sīla, while this is the understanding of realities. So it's much better, seeing even the moment of akusala instead of letting it come in through body and speech and then knowing it. [So adhisīla means more than just sīla?]
Certainly. That's why there is the prefix adhi — adhisīla, adhicitta. [It has to do with...] ...Understanding and direct awareness. [And purification.] So soon? Is everything already there? Little by little, little by little.
Paticca-samuppada: no need to wait before talking about phassa
[Azita] This morning I was reading my small book about Paticca-samuppada.
[A. Sujin] Now there is akusala citta, okay? Should we talk about the avijja which conditions this akusala citta? So we can begin with anything. It doesn't mean that there must be avijja, and then later sankhara. But we can talk about avijja, and we know avijja arises with each akusala. And when we talk about akusala, we know that there is avijja as condition. We have to talk about them one at a time, but they go together, arise together. [So each part of that...]
It's there; it depends on whether you would talk about phassa. Because you see when it is akusala citta, there must be phassa. So we don't have to wait before talking about phassa. But we can talk about phassa.
So that's why the Buddha talked about avijja conditions sankhara, and then the other way around: from here to there, from there to here. See, or from the middle — even right now, there is phassa which conditions tanha or lobha. [So I could go back and try reading it and putting it in the present moment.]
I think that with the understanding of realities, whenever you read whatever, you will understand. But when there is no understanding of reality so well, we have doubts about this subject, paticca samuppada or the noble truths and so on. But when there is the understanding of realities, no doubt. No matter we talk about this subject or other subjects, the same thing — must be about realities.
Mp3 audio file: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oeQFEJID3iWbIBZaeKLumi1HoI8jF3v0
Dhammahome source audio: https://www.dhammahome.com/audio_en/download/34e3fff0/31/22