The patience not to be me is more difficult

Sarah: I have a comment and a question the comment is yes we usually think of patience in terms of situation waiting patiently for one’s lunch or something like this and then we learn that it’s very cheater speaker and it arises with almost every moment except most of the ahetuka cittas such as seeing and hearing and so on and so it’s quite different from the conventional idea of patience that that khanti or patience can be kusala or akusala usually it’s akusala patience they’re quite different from our conventional idea, my question Ajahn is we say that khanti is viriya and it arises every citta except for cittas and so on and this is exactly what we say about effort viriya or energy viriya so it makes it sound as though in that respect that khanti and the patience and effort are just the same because they’re both viriya and they both arise with the same cittas but sometimes we refer to sometimes to patience and sometimes to effort so when we talk about patience with all arising of all cittas except for those ahetuka cittas and the same for effort what is the distinction then between patience and effort.

A. Sujin: Only a moment of viriya, can it be known?

Sarah: A moment can’t be known it’s so fast and it’s gone whether we call it patience or effort.

A. Sujin: But sometimes can it appear? As it takes viriya too to do something, and when it’s more and more, stronger and stronger with difficulty, we begin to know that just viriya it’s not enough, it has to take more time and a greater degree of viriya. Because if I cannot do this at all, but I would like to do that and I try, and when I begin to try who knows whether khanti is needed to be patient enough, just to try to be, or to try to do, when I cannot do it at all in the beginning. So when it appears we can say oh I like this very much, oh I just like this not but as much as the other thing. So it’s like viriya and khanti.

Sarah: The khanti is viriya also it’s uh well we can’t say no

A. Sujin: Because there’s no khanti cetasika, see, that’s why even viriya itself has many degrees, like lobha, and when it does not appear who can know? But even at the moment of knowing no need to say whether it’s viriya or this is khanti

Sarah: And also when we talk about and very apparently then it’s making a distinction too about the kind of viriya at that moment I think.

A. Sujin: Because usually there is viriya almost with every citta, as we know only some that do not have viriya with them, but we know too that, okay I’ve tried today, this is enough for me. It’s not khanti to finish it, to try to have it finished. That’s why even right now we know that at any moment viriya is there, almost with every citta, but whether it’s khanti or not, or just live leisurely or something like that, see. So we use different words just to show the intensity or the long moment which is many many moments, to have it finished or to be successful. So it’s only the word to show a reality which is the same characteristic but depends on different situation and different times for that certain job or whatever word or whatever their destination means

Sarah: And sometimes other words use like arambha or atapi or vayama so different words for viriya in different contexts.

A. Sujin: And we talk about different levels from the very beginning, and one word for it. And when it’s more and more, from the beginning to that moment, and then after that moment, another word too.

Sarah: And also when we read about khantiñana then, of course, this is referring to a very highly developed khanti that develops with the higher vipassana ñanas. So again it’s the very highly developed khanti at those moments that has to develop with insight

A. Sujin: And it shows how subtle it is because you see that, in the beginning, right now, we think that we have viriya and khanti as well. But compared to the moment of really understanding the truth, from one moment of direct awareness, and to have more and more and more, before it can be the vipassanañana, we think that it’s so great, khanti, but compared to the vipassanañana, from very very weak, and then stronger and stronger, from which ñana to what ñana, see.

So we can see the subtlety of even that it’s not enough intellectual understanding, with viriya and khanti, it cannot compare to the moment when direct awareness of satipatthana is there, because it’s more difficult to understand the truth, which is there any moment because no selection, no ... at all. It depends on the proper moment of the readiness of these conditions of intellectual understanding. So leave it to anattaness and it takes time, which is why viriya does not appear but khanti can be understood that it takes quite a long long time with patience with parami and with pañña and with all the other kusala dhamma, to condition it to be higher understanding and that is not we have strong yet comparing to vipassanañana, the first of which is the weak ones and then the middle ones and then the highest ones, see. This is the development of pañña, from not understanding anything as it is at all until it begins to understand intellectually until it begins to understand with direct awareness. And it takes such a long time to be vipassanañana, from the first one, which is very weak khanti, compared to the other higher vipassanañana, but comparing to intellectual understanding, we say that they are different. No need to compare or use any word, but it indicates how difficult to have less attachment to the wrong understanding, the idea of self, and ignorance of whatever is now, covered up by ignorance all the time, more and more, each moment.

That’s why we understand khanti parami any moment which is so hard, so difficult to develop, but it has to be viriya too. If there’s no viriya at that very moment, there cannot be khanti parami, because it’s much more difficult than anyone can think about.

Sarah: When you say khanti and viriya too but we’ve said before that khanti is viriya but here you’re distinguishing between khanti parami and viriya paramis so here the viriya parami is referring to the different quality of viriya to that khanti so for example the courage that’s involved or the effort as opposed to patience. Would you say a little bit more about that?

A. Sujin: For example, I cannot draw any picture or paint anything at all, it seems so very difficult for me. But compared to understand seeing now as no one, only that which arises and experiences an object, in truth, see, not only in theory, or only intellectual understanding, see. Much greater of the two, and that is viriya and khanti too. If it is only viriya and I forget about it, don’t want to follow it at all, no khanti, see. So it has different aspects, that’s all.

Sarah: It’s very subtle it’s very um it’s good to discuss and appreciate this point because we say so often well khanti is viriya but we talk so much about khanti and very and developing them so it’s good to appreciate the different aspects even though they’re all viriya cetasikas.

A. Sujin: It’s just like: try it, try, try, and: be patient, be patient, be patient, see. Just viriya but it depends on other situations as well. So now, see, no need to say, because there must be viriya but it does not appear. But sometimes we can say: try again, again please, a little more. And then: be patient, be patient in any situation.

But the best thing is to understand the nature of that as no one there at all, the difference between citta and cetasikas, they appear, no need to call them, but these are not citta because they arise together.

Sarah: And I think the important point is to understand that it’s not like the situation we thought of like we think about being patient conventionally it’s not like that or we think of clinging to the delicious food but we find out that such subtle lobha comes in completely unknown three moments after seeing and hearing so it’s quite different from conventional ideas and it’s the same with the effort or p or viriya too so different from what we thought of so this is why we study more about the details and learn about when theory arises in order to understand it as a dhamma as anatta not like the conventional idea of effort.

A. Sujin: And ... the nature of it, see. Or just talk about it: how sweet, how bitter it is, it’s not like the moment of tasting that. So intellectual understanding is that which understand intellectually the truth that we learn from word to word, sentence to sentence, more and more. And the moment when it develops, by conditions, this is the only way to let go of the idea of self. Otherwise, it’s the self all the time, unknown that it is that which conditions the moment of wanting to be this or that. So the patience not to be this, not to be that, not to be me, is more difficult.

Sarah: And like you say even now when we listen just listen in a few moments countless moments of kusala and akusala khanti patience arising and falling away unknown and just passing dhamma none of them belonging to me or anyone else, not my patience, not anyone’s patience, just different dhamma.

A. Sujin: The asava of different moments, of different doorways, all the time, see. It means patience, more understanding, even at the level of intellectual understanding, and on and on to the direct awareness, and to directly experience, with more understanding as vipassanañana. All the time all the way patience and with viriya because viriya itself is patience, no self.

Sarah: And I think at least intellectually it’s easy to understand how as understanding develops the kusala khanti the kusala viriya develops with it because the understanding is firm and firmer about knowing that this moment is conditioned it’s not self it can’t be any other way so it conditions patience to develop with it and that’s why it develops on and on with understanding but without that understanding it can never develop

A. Sujin: Even when we say in daily life: try and be patient, see, we use different terms for different aspects.

Sarah: A good topic to bring up Azita thank you,thank you Ajahn.

A. Sujin: So now, viriya or khanti? No need, as long as no understanding of the nama which experiences, and the rupa which appears and cannot experience. Otherwise, the self is there and thinking is there, here and there, in a day, all the time. And the point of talking about viriya and khanti is to understand that nothing can be taken for self, just in a very very short moment, and pañña is not clear enough to understand it as it is, not well yet, because it appears as something all the time.