The moment of letting go

18m-45m

[Jonothan] Ajahn, you said we take what we see for being a permanent thing and the crucial word there is permanent, but a lot of the time there is thinking of people and things, but no thinking about whether or not they are permanent.

[A. Sujin] So, when you think of people, what is that?

[Jon] Well, for example now we are talking to each other, there are a lot of faces on the screen, but there's no idea of permanence, no particular thought of whether or not there's anything permanent.

[A. Sujin] But who knows that what is seen cannot be hard, cannot be any shape or form because before its becoming a shape and form, so many many many minute realities arising and falling away in split seconds. No understanding of how it follows, instantly, rapidly,...

[Jon] That's correct, no understanding of the conditioned realities on which the idea is based.

[A. Sujin] As long as there is: what is seen is something, is it true?

[Jon] Well, it depends what we mean by something.

[A. Sujin] But is that which is seen a thing or what?

[Jon] I'm not sure what you mean when you ask "is it a thing?".

[A. Sujin] Okay, a pencil, a leg...

[Jon] Can we talk about say the ear door for a moment.

[A. Sujin] We are not talking about any doorway yet, we're just talking about the reality to understand what it's meant by reality, a reality. Many realities, different realities, so what is a reality? Can it be changed, its nature?

[Jon] No.

[A. Sujin] Exactly, even we learn a lot about that which seeing sees, but it does not appear as we said...

[Jon] Right, realities do not appear as realities, but that doesn't mean that the concept we have involves an idea of self.

[A. Sujin] What is it then, if it's not self? Because self doesn't mean I or people only: any thing.

[Jon] It means an idea of permanence.

[A. Sujin] So, is what is being seen now arising and falling away?

[Jon] Could you repeat your question please, Ajahan.

[A. Sujin] For example, I see you, does that arise and fall away?

[Jon] No.

[A. Sujin] See, it's what it is in truth.

[Jon] Right, things are not seen as they truly are, that's correct.

[A. Sujin] In life it's not easy to understand the truth, that what is seen cannot be anything at all, cannot be any thing. So the Buddha taught about what is there, which is seen, where it is: wherever there are the four primary rupas there must be that which can impinge on the eye base, to appear as it is, no idea whether it's white or black or blue or red, but it's seen. That which is seen, so very tiny, very fast, arising and then falling away very rapidly, so how can it be a pencil? So one can understand one's own ignorance from considering what is meant by no-one and no-thing because as long as there is "thing", only a thing, that cannot be the letting go. So what did the Buddha say? Only pañña, with the paramis, the viriya to condition paramis, to develop on and on, there can be the letting go. So now no one knows that there is no letting go of anything because pañña does not directly experience the truth of that, to let go.

[Jon] That's correct.

[A. Sujin] Even we talk about no matter what nama and rupa, it's not the moment of letting go, it has to be the moment of developing understanding and, in order to let go, it has to be anatta. And how does it let go? The moment of understanding, it lets go, but no one knows. Like now, sankhara khandha, the cetasikas, are performing their functions, each of them, no one knows. So at moment of understanding, where is the anusaya? It is this moment, anusaya is there at the moment of seeing, at whatever moment, whenever there is citta there must be anusaya. We don't talk about the moment eons and eons ago, because it's all gone, and it's passed on to this moment. So all anusaya are there now at this moment and the understanding lets go of it at moment of understanding. But what about the other moments, when there is no understanding of it, it's still there with anusaya. So it works its way, pañña works its way and all cetasikas work their way, no one there at all. And what appears in life? When there is no hearing about the Teachings at all, can there be the understanding of this moment that what is seen now cannot be anything, otherwise it's not letting go.

[Jon] Could you elaborate a bit on that Ajahn, what is seen now cannot be anything...

[A. Sujin] Is seeing very short?

[Jon] Yes.

[A. Sujin] How short it is?

[Jon] Extremely short.

[A. Sujin] Okay, so that which is seen, is it short as well?

[Jon] It would be.

[A. Sujin] So it cannot be the same for the next seeing at all.

[Jon] Correct.

[A. Sujin] So nothing is not permanent, to be something...

[Jon] And that's just by thinking, Ajahn.

[A. Sujin] Only thinking arises and falls away and thinking cannot see, thinking cannot see at all. So a moment of seeing, who knows how short it is, only once, from nothing and then seeing and then nothing, cannot arise again, cannot be taken for anything, cannot be found anymore.

[Jon] That's correct.

[A. Sujin] So how can there be something? When there is the understanding of what really is the object of seeing, not as we think at all.

[Jon] Only when there are moments of awareness and understanding.

[A. Sujin] Every moment, no one is seen. Just a moment of seeing, but it is the nimitta of seeing and seeing can see only that which can impinge on the eye base. The whole body, the whole chair, the whole cannot impinge on the body base but "what is there", "what is there"? Only when it's seen it appears but when there's no seeing it cannot appear at all, even it's there. Like heat, heat is there but when there's no touching, it is not there at moment of not touching, only there at moment of touching. So life is so short, like this, that nothing can be taken for permanent thing or I because so very short. This is why people or ordinary person cannot understand the truth. Just hearing is not enough, but to understand that now what we are talking about, from hearing the Teachings, is here, at moment of...

[Jon] To what extent do we take things that are seen in the course of a day, or heard as being permanent or I?

[A. Sujin] And can understanding develop?

[Jon] Yes, it can Ajahn.

[A. Sujin] How?

[Jon] Gradually, by conditions.

[A. Sujin] And more confidence on seeing as what is seen, not the whole thing as something, but only that which cannot be anything, that is letting go of the idea of that which is seen as something. So letting go has to be from the very beginning to understand what is meant. Letting go is not moment of enlightenment only, but even from listening, letting go with understanding.

And then there is the understanding, it is unexpected, no one can wish or hope to have it, depending on moments of right understanding that can let go of wrong understanding, which has been taking it for something for quite a long long time, wrongly, not as it is. That's why the way to let go is not trying to do anything different because it's not I who can try, who can understand, but the moment of understanding being there, to clean the anusaya which is there, enormous, no one can count. Each moment there is more and more anusaya, when there is kusala or akusala, and akusala is anusaya, this is the only way. Otherwise how can there be the understanding that actually there is no self, what is there is only dhamma. That's why the Buddha used the term dhamma, he realized dhamma, he taught about dhammas. Understand dhamma as: nothing, only that...

[Jon] Right, so only when dhammas are seen with awareness and understanding can there be an appreciation of no one there.

[A. Sujin] Yes, and pañña knows the truth, how much is the understanding. Because we talk about what we've read from the book and consider it and it is the intellectual understanding, without the intellectual understanding no condition to be close to that which is now appearing, so short and then gone, to be another higher level, patipatti, before there can be the realization of the arising and falling away, only one at a time but by nimitta. So this is the world of ignorance, the blind world, not understanding whatever appears because without right understanding of the higher level it does not appear well at all.

[Jon] A lot of ignorance in one's life.

[A. Sujin] That's it, that's why beginning to understand that to study the Teachings of the Buddha must be to understand the truth, to be so truthful to the truth and it can lead to the enlightenment of the truth because now it arises and falls away, unknown. At moment when hardness does not appear, but there is the idea of: something is hard, "my leg", "my arm" is there, see.

[Jon] Well, there is the idea of something is hard but there may not be an idea of permanence associated with something

[A. Sujin] But it doesn't appear as arising and falling away.

[Jon] Correct.

[A. Sujin] That is not enough, but it will lead to more understanding, to let go of wrong understanding, from the beginning of studying with the idea of self into studying to understand that actually there is no one. Otherwise no matter how long will it go on in life, no understanding of it, as long as the I studies, but to know the truth from the very beginning: dhamma cannot be taken for anything because it's conditioned. When nothing arises how can there be the world, the trees and everything? But when whatever is there, some-thing is there, ignorance is there, how long for? Long long time ago. So it will take time to consider and [have] firm understanding, more confidence on no-I, otherwise no way to let go, as long as it's something, I or not [I], but it's something there. But actually...

[Jon] For example, if I want to walk from this room into the next room I know that I have to open the door.

[A. Sujin] But what walks through the door? Forgetting about that, trying to know just that as not self, but the self is each moment of the five khandhas.

[Jon] Even the enlightened being, sotapanna, will have an idea of having the need to open the door to walk into the next room.

[A. Sujin] But no wrong understanding as permanent I or real I, dhammas, by conditions. It does not disturb, even very great attachment is there.

[Jon] The mere fact that there is that thought doesn't necessarily mean wrong view is present.

[A. Sujin] Can anyone let go of the strong attachment?

[Jon] No, no one can let go of strong attachment.

[A. Sujin] So, who walks to open the door?

[Jon] That depends on the moment, sometimes there might be a strong idea of or strong attachment itself, at other times not, depending on the thoughts that arise that are conditioned.

[A. Sujin] But when pañña is not enough to understand a reality at that moment, what can understand that as not self?

[Jon] Only pañña.

[A. Sujin] But when pañña is not there to understand even just a reality then, what can? Nothing.

[Jon] Nothing, so there could be ignorance or there could be a wrong view as well but it could be just ignorance.

[A. Sujin] Okay, that's why: can there be that moment which understand a reality, at that moment?

[Jon] If understanding is developed it can.

[A. Sujin] That's why we learn about it, consider about it. To have more understanding about it, to have conditions for right awareness to arise, by conditions.

[Jon] And we learn that the moments of wrong view have a particular characteristic that distinguish those moments from other moments.

[A. Sujin] But the first understanding of the truth is: no one there, only that which appears. Otherwise it doesn't appear well, as long as it's I. But when there is "no I", it's there, another level of understanding of: what was not there is there as the experiencing which experiences an object, no one.

[Jon] Sorry Ajahn, "as long as I is there", do you mean as long as there is the thought of I am walking or something like that.

[A. Sujin] Because even we use the word thinking we don't understand thinking. For example, at moment of waking up, what does waking up mean? No more bhavanga and no seeing yet, or hearing yet, but there is thinking, who knows that thinking moment? So everything is in darkness, [until] hearing again and again, to begin to understand firmly, more confidently, not changing. That is the saccañana of pariyatti, three rounds of the four noble truths: the saccas of pariyatti, the saccas of patipatti, the saccas of pativedha. So when it's not clear yet, when one thinks "it's so clear" it's wrong. So it has to be sacca parami, to understand that: it's only intellectual understanding until the right awareness, direct awareness arises, then no doubt about that. So doubt can be eliminated, wearied away just very little, when there is pañña of a different level.

But be sure that the truth is the truth, what is seen is only that which can impinge on the eye-base. No thing, no hardness, no sound, no sight, no smell. Only that which we take for "something is seen", but is still something, not just that which impinges and then falls away. Because 17 moments are so very short, before it can be anything, right now so many many things. So, how rapidly citta arises and falls away, all [conditioned] dhammas are just like that. That's why without the Teachings of the Enlightened One, one can see: how could it be? So amazing, like a miracle, that it can, and it appears as different worlds as we usually live in, with many things and many people. But it has to develop, to let go of the idea of self from the very beginning, that seeing is seeing and now it sees something, so it's not the seeing which sees only that which is not anything at all.

Beginning to understand little by little, so that it can appear because of the understanding [being] developed enough to understand that. So it depends only on understanding, what level it is, whether intellectual level or direct awareness. And when it's the direct awareness, it is so short again, everything's so short. But pañña begins to understand the difference and lets go of the idea that: I'll try, I'll do, I'll go to the meditation center, or such wrong idea, which is not the right condition for understanding to just arise because of hearing, considering, wisely enough, long enough, to be unexpectedly there for any moment of understanding. It's just like now, unexpectedly, whatever arises, unknown.

But even the truth is just right now, without [studying] the Teachings carefully it's not known. And when it's known it has to be knowing this moment, with no one, no I. But that is the moment of direct awareness with understanding, otherwise it cannot be that level of understanding. Because anything can be touched, hardness can appear, but where is the understanding? So, it's different from just intellectual understanding.

That's why there has to be the ariyasaccañana of the four noble truths, at level of intellectual [understanding], pariyatti, saccas of pariyatti: never changing from the truth that what is seen, since it is something, it's not enough to let go. Something from now, everyone, things around, actually only different realities experienced through different doorways, that's all.

That's why we begin to understand what's meant by parami and pañña is the only thing which, at moment of understanding, lessens attachment and wrong understanding and ignorance, only that. Be patient, khanti parami, so great, so true; sacca parami, so firm; adhitthana parami, no matter how difficult, no matter how long it will take, one day, as for the [Sammasambuddha] Bodhisatta. And for the savaka bodhisatta it takes time too, different levels as different people: Sariputta, Mogallana, Ananda, they are all different.

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