Kathā vatthu, a moment of wanting is just like dreaming of that

A. Sujin: We’ve talked about kathā vatthu, and kathā vatthu is the subject or object about having no attachment, no lobha at all, from stage to stage, to the end, when there is no lobha at all. But it has to be little by little, in order to have no lobha at all, it cannot be all at once, that's why even santuṭṭhi (contentment). Can there be no lobha all at once now? Impossible. That’s why in daily life one should understand the moment when there is lobha and when there is no lobha, or when there is very strong lobha and very little lobha. But at the end, the moment without lobha is the moment of enlightenment, having completely no lobha. But it has to become, from this moment right now, and right now it’s not the one which has gone, when we say "now is gone", each one is gone. That’s why understanding intellectually about how there will be no lobha at all, at the end, but not at the very beginning.

For example, if we are not just as disturbed by wanting so much, the kathā vatthus tell us about how to have very little, just being satisfied with what we have, when we have it already, without lobha to have more, or less, or whatever, but appreciating what it’s there, as it is, as one has already, whatever comes. That is one way to have less lobha, on and on until it becomes one’s habit, before understanding that at that moment, when we say that there’s no lobha, it means lobha with attachment to the idea of self.

Is there lobha now? What number is the kathā vatthu of this moment of having lobha? All depends on understanding the truth of whatever is there, as it is. If there is no understanding that now there is lobha, it’s impossible to get rid of that, but by having understanding at that very moment as it is, it is the beginning of seeing lobha, that it’s there, to let [it] go by pañña, understanding, better and better.

So I think that in order to understand realities right now there should be the considering about the truth of it, of just now, whatever is there. Now there is lobha, we can say that, but it’s only estimation, speculation, thinking that it’s there, but in truth pañña has to pierce or penetrate that moment when it’s there, no matter in the corner, lurking there, or whatever, it should be known, understood, otherwise there cannot be the letting go of it.

So it’s not thinking about letting go anything, but understanding its truth first, that actually what is there is that, no one there. That’s why if there’s the firm understanding about there’s-no-one-at-all, it’s the beginning of understanding each word of the Buddha as no-one-there-at-all, even lobha is lobha, no one.

So the point is understanding the truth, that actually there’s no one no thing at all, just appearing and disappearing, from moment to moment, even right now, but it’s hidden, covered up by not understanding the truth. That’s why we learn to understand whatever appears now as a reality, different ones. So there can be more understanding of: that cannot be self, that cannot be self, because it’s just that, as it is. Even lobha is the subject of kathā vatthu.

When you get something, do you appreciate it? Or it should be better than that, even a little bit. It’s so very very subtle to understand, because whatever is there is there just very shortly, and then it’s gone completely, what is left is the meaning, is the nimitta, the image of…

Sarah: Ajahn, last time I mentioned about the kathā vatthu Sutta which talks about the topics of discussion and what is suitable and not suitable and we know of course that in the end what is suitable is depends on whether there’s understanding at this moment, no matter the topic, how does this relate to what you were just talking about the kathā vatthus, the different stages of lobha.

A. Sujin: So, let's talk just about the first kathā vatthu, what is it? I think that it’s all about attachment, lobha, and the 10 kathā vatthus concern the different degrees of lobha. From just craving for something and wanting it so much, or just not being satisfied with what one has, but starting from the very very beginning. To me, I have learned that from Pali it means: no lobha at all, leading to having no lobha at all: kathā vatthu.

Sarah: Yes because the final one is the knowledge of vision and release. It means the attainment of arahant no lobha at all.

A. Sujin: And that cannot be the first one, it has to start little by little, to have less and less lobha, in daily life.

Sarah: Yes, like you say in the beginning there has to be more contentment and easy to please, easy to satisfied and the first one I need to check what it means by modesty, less concern about oneself perhaps.

A. Sujin: The way one lives in daily life: without understanding that there is craving all the time, more or less, in a day, right? No understanding of: the Teachings leads to having no lobha at all, at the end. But if you don’t know what is there in daily life, how can it become less? If you just want and want and want all day, for this and that, how can there be moments of "it’s lobha, adding each moment, more and more and more, and that cannot lead to the end of having no lobha at all". That’s why [He] talks about the truth of every life, that there is craving, no matter it's known or unknown, it’s there. Even right now, as long as there’s no understanding the moment of "it’s there", not understanding. So there is craving to understand or craving to know what it is.

This is the way to learn to understand lobha in daily life, that is so common in daily life. So if there is less, with the understanding of the danger of it, and at the end not having it at all, that is the best thing. But it has to be done little by little, beginning from understanding that in the day there’s so much lobha, for food, for whatever is there that is now. One just wants to have it, or the liking to have it is there. But learning to understand the modesty, the lobha gets less, because of knowing lobha, that it’s just like a dream. A moment of wanting is just like dreaming of that, because it’s not there yet. So one learns to understand that moment instead of thinking or dreaming about anything. So it’s the way to understand lobha in daily life, in order to have it less and less, because of understanding the truth.

See also: Kathā, the words which can condition less attachment