Inner or outer? It is that which is not the object that appears as something at all

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Sarah: In in the meantime I've got a topic that we could start with Ajahn about khandhas, about the different khandhas. A few weeks ago Ann, you'll remember you were asking about inner and outer and we discussed different characteristics of rūpas, so I thought we could go through each khandha starting with rūpa and consider the meanings of the different terms used to describe them when the suttas talk about whether past future present, internal external and so on, and then for the other khandhas in turn. So starting with rūpa, any rūpa, any rūpa, whether it's past rūpa, rūpa that's fallen away, future rūpa, rūpa that hasn't arisen or present rūpa, is khandha, it's rūpa khandha. And then we discussed the other day internal/ajjhattika or external/bahira, so the internal, as we discussed are the five sense bases, eye-sense and so on, and the external, the bahira rūpas are the other 23 rūpas, and then it says any rūpa past future present, internal external, gross or subtle, as we discussed the gross are the sense bases and sense objects, the 12 olarika rūpas, so any of the sense bases or sense objects, and the subtle/sukhuma rūpas are the other 16 rūpas. And then it says inferior/hina or superior/panita, and I'm not sure which they are, Ajahn, which are the inferior rūpas and which are the superior/panita rūpas?

A. Sujin: I think that the most important thing in life is to understand that which is now appearing because usually we just say: everything is dhamma, but what about everything now? It doesn't appear as dhamma yet. That's why we shouldn't go across each reality because it's so very subtle, and that which can be known it's not just the word but the reality of it, in order to let go of the idea of self, because if we have no understanding of whatever is appearing at all, it's impossible to let go the idea of self at all, because it's just talking about what we've learned from the book, like everything is dhamma. But in life, in real life, this moment, all around, must be dhamma, nothing as people and things at all, from birth to death, from life to life. That's why realities are so very subtle that we have to consider only one reality in order to understand the truth of it, which can be known right now, so that it can begin to understand what the Buddha taught about different aspects of each dhamma. For example right now, what rūpa should we talk about? Just one at a time, because there are so many rūpas all around, no one there at all, even what we take for my body see inside or outside, the body of the other. The other's body cannot be inside, but the body which is now taken from my body is inside, in one aspect. To understand what we are talking about, there are so many different rūpas, and that which arises and falls away by conditions, that which is not the object of experiencing right now, so it can't be known, but now, what is there now? Is there enough understanding for letting go of some thing in it? No matter what rūpa it is, cakkhupasāda is there, unknown, but that which is seen is now appearing, and the truth of it is that, is it inside or outside? Because it is the object. Citta experiences that and that is not here but it's there, the object of seeing. That's why that which is now appearing as something, no matter it's a bed, window or flower or person, people or whatever, it's only that which can be seen, a reality which nobody can change at all, because it is the absolute truth, which is not known at all, from life to life, and now it's the beginning to consider the truth, that we live in the world of ignorance, each moment after seeing hearing smelling tasting on and on, not understanding the truth of anything.

So just learn to consider that which is now appearing, so that there can be the understanding of it is that which is not the object that appears as some thing at all. For example right now, what's that? It appears as something, but in truth, it's that which is seen, and we don't mind whether it's outside or inside, at moment when it's there as the object, to be known as that which is something, before understanding the truth, but in truth it's only a reality, only a reality conditioned to arise and appear as the object right now, and while appearing it seems like it's there all the time, but in truth not all the time at all, just for a very short moment. Even now, there is hearing and thinking, not just seeing. When there is the considering about the truth of everything, the understanding begins to understand how much ignorance is there in life, from moment to moment, today yesterday and tomorrow, on and on. That's why: just learn to understand the truth, the nature of it, otherwise it's useless in life if we just remember all the words and all the terms, but each word conditions the understanding of the truth as it is. For example what is the outer rūpa now? That which is experienced. But the inside is the eye-base at moment of seeing, ear-base at moment of hearing and so on, like the body base and so on, kāyapasādarūpa, is there now, covered up by attachment and ignorance clinging to that which appears as something all the time in life, in samsara. That's why if there's no understanding of that which is appearing, it's impossible to let go of the idea of self, which is not easy at all. For example right now, what is there now? Even what we take for my hand is not a hand, it's just moment of experiencing hardness and then thinking about it, or no thought about it at all, just thinking about other things, while we are eating or talking or walking or doing anything. No understanding of anything that we have learned, because the point is understanding that that can be directly experienced as the Buddha had experienced, all dhammas, and told us, to know the way to develop the understanding to directly experience it, little by little, to let go the idea of self. So beginning with the rūpa in and out we can understand two meanings: the other's body is not the inside or the inner, but that which now we take for my body is the inner, not outer. And at the moment of seeing what is outer? The rūpa which is experienced is there, but the cakkhupasāda is here, but the cakkhupasāda is the in... do you know the word in Pāli?

Sa. It's the ajjhattika, the inner.

Su. That's it, in a day the inner is there, that we don't know at all, all the time, the eye-base and the ear-base and so on, but it's there to be known, to let go of the idea of self. That's why studying dhamma is not just learning and forgetting and no understanding of this moment, but it's the understanding of the depth, the subtlety of reality right now. The truth is that nothing is there permanently at all, whatever is now appearing, it's only at moment when it appears, but even so, the rapidity of the arising and falling away of what are there now, so many many things, not just seeing, citta before seeing and after seeing and then thinking and the rūpa and idea about that, all in the day covers up the truth of that which arises by conditions and falls away instantly, all the time. So we begin to understand the meaning of the inner and the outer. Do we have to remember the Pāli word? All right, it's good because the Buddha taught in Pāli, but not just the meaning, but the truth of it, that is now. He taught about whatever is now appearing, all the time.

Sa. And Ajahn on the point about the inner and outer, in English or in Pāli or in any language, so as you mentioned, when when we're talking about the rūpas there are two meanings, at the moment of seeing the eye sense is the inner rūpa and that which has seen the visible object is the outer rūpa that is experienced, and in another sense, the inner is what is taken for my body and the outer what is taken for the others. When it comes to the nāma khandhas, for example vedana sañña and so on, the inner can be what is taken for my feeling and the outer what is taken for the others, so only one sense of inner and outer when it comes to the different cetasikas. As we know when it comes to citta, citta is the innermost in another sense, so in terms of the actual khandhas for rūpas we can say the eye sense is the ajjhattika, the inner rūpa, and the visible object is the bahira, the external rūpa, but for vedana, can we only refer to what is taken for our feeling as opposed to the others?

Su. It could be the understanding of whatever is now, like inner and outer, right? Internal external. For example, there is no one at all, this is the truth of each moment, but the citta that arises falls away in split second, so we don't care talking about only that one, but we talk about the nature of that. For example, there is no one at all, and then there is seeing, that seeing it's not the other seeing because there can be seeing anytime when there the right conditions for seeing to arise, but what is there appearing [to pañña] is the inner, right?

Sa. Even though as we know, like with regard to seeing or vedana, actually there's no my seeing or the other's seeing or the inner vedana feeling or the outer feeling, because it's just feeling that arises, and when it's known it's just feeling or just seeing, so it's only thinking that considers it as inner or outer in that sense.

Su. That's why the Buddha taught about everything, no matter it's the moment of seeing, the moment of thinking, or the moments of taking something for this or that. The absolute truth is that nothing is permanent at all, from nothing there is something, conditioned to appear and then disappear instantly, and that can be directly experienced, because it's the truth, so true, otherwise what's the use of talking about citta arising to see and then falling away? Just to experience it.

But when enough pañña is there, it lets go of attachment and ignorance about what is there as something, all the time, even right now, and this is the path. Dhamma, we are used to saying, it's very deep, very subtle, but the subtlety of all dhammas are here and now, because it does not appear as it is, as just only one at a time, while the truth is that citta, or that which experiences, can experience only one object at a time. So each word is so meaningful, it is not just the word, but it's the truth, the absolute truth that can be directly experienced, otherwise wrong understanding and ignorance is there, no matter how much we know about the word, the five khandhas at that moment experience that, [I mean] the four nāma-khandhas experience that, not the rūpa-khandha. Just talking about the truth now, so that there can be a little more interest, chanda, confidence, saddha, to see the value, the precious moment of understanding it, because just one moment of understanding whatever is now appearing conditions another moment. And there can be the understanding of what the Buddha said about the cookbook, what we understand now, and the moment when it's pañña, the nature of pañña is there, at moment when it understands that which is now appearing, and by then no doubt about what is meant by samma-ditthi, samma-sati at all, because it's there, different from this moment, not understanding directly that which is there all the time, but no one knows because ignorance is there an attachment is always there, covers up. So, until there is less ignorance and less attachment, so that there can be attention, or beginning to think about, or being aware, sati at that level, which does not forget that it's a reality right now, and that is the beginning and by conditions. That's why the path is so very very subtle, no one knows that without letting go from the very beginning, it's impossible to let go of all the wrong understanding about whatever is now appearing as something, as something, it's there, it's not true. And we're talking about the underneath, the underside that is there, very deep, that which is now arising and falling away in split second.

That's why learning about the truth of that which is now appearing, that is the way to let go wrong understanding that takes it for me or anyone or thing because actually, it's just like the breaking world all the time, just arises and falls away succeedingly, unknown, because of the rapidity of the arising and falling away. And who can imagine how fast it is, just opens one's eyes, aren't there many many things around? Actually, each one has to impinge on the eye base and the citta experiences only one object before it can be a flower or anything at all, that's why it cannot be known unless the enlightenment and the words of the Buddha [are there], from his enlightenment of the truth, realization of the truth of what is there now. So anything can be object of ignorance and attachment, sometimes someone might have the very very unusual pleasant feeling, it's not as the happy or pleasant feeling at moment of experiencing the five objects through the sense-door and mind-door. But that which hasn't happened at all... But there must be conditions in the past to condition such moment, and without the understanding of what experience that in daily life, it's impossible to let go that level of pleasant feeling at all, that's why anything can happen, can be object, by conditions, but what about the understanding? It has to understand whatever is there, otherwise, at that moment there are the latent tendencies and the āsavas of avijja and attachment, unknown. That's why it takes time to know the point of studying: just to understand, no matter we're talking about rūpa inner or outer, external internal, what is there? No word at all, but the truth is that the reality begins to appear little by little, to that level of understanding. At moment of thinking about it, we are lost, and trying to understanding it, but at moment when it's there, a reality, its nature is that, it's not the voice or the sound, at moment of seeing it's not the smell, it's not hardness and softness, it's only a moment of experiencing that which is now, sees, experiences that object.

But the nature of that which experiences does not appear yet, because when there are so many things together around, no understanding of any one clearly at all because there are so many things together. That's why there can be the understanding of what can lead to that moment, the understanding about the truth of it conditions the moment of beginning to consider, to develop the understanding of the nature of a reality which is experiencing now an object, and only that object, only one at a time. By then there can be a little more understanding of the difference between what is there now with awareness and the development of understanding until it appears as it is to that level of understanding. The world's gone and only one object is now the object of understanding. So the understanding is clearer, no doubt about that object, but that's not enough at all, because it's only the first moment of understanding the truth of that, what is actually meant by nothing, and then there must be a reality arising and falling away, but the moment when it arises is not known, because it's a moment of beginning to understand the nature of that which experiences and the nature of that which cannot experience. So just learn about this moment as we have learned by each word of the Buddha [which] is so subtle, otherwise no one knows the great virtues of the Buddha, who's the Buddha, who's the enlightened one, and what's meant by enlightenment. It has to be: anything now begins to show up little by little as it is, no-one and no-self and no-thing at all. Otherwise it's useless to just think about and trying very hard to understand what is there, in the book, but what is there now? From the book we've heard, it's there, so true, that which experiences. Only one word, dhamma, is real and it's there because nobody can change any moment of seeing not to see, impossible because it has arisen and seen already. Everything is by conditions, from life to life, no permanent I, no Sujin, no whoever, it can only be just in this life, and not the words, but realities, all the time, the word just makes it known as a different reality by name, as this and that.

So it has to be the understanding of each word as it is now, inner outer, external internal, now it's there. But the nature of that which is not self, the citta viññana-khandha, the vedana-khandha, these do not appear as objects, and the sañña-khandha and sankhara-khandha, cetasikas are there. And only that which appears can be object of understanding. That's why even the citta before seeing and after seeing cannot be known, because they do not appear. So, there can be the understanding of what is meant by nimitta and paññatti, without realities there cannot be any nimitta, because realities arise and fall away in split second, so very very fast. So they are all now, all nimittas, and when it appears as nimitta, the idea, the sañña marks and remembers, even no word at all yet, not by speech, but sañña marks and remembers the characteristics of that which appears, until it makes it known as something, paññatti. So paññatti is the object of citta which takes the nimitta as something. And not just that, words too, because we've learned to remember the tone, the volume of the word, and everyone has the idea of something there, with such word. That's why there can be the paññatti which is sadda (sound), not only attha (meaning). This is life from life to life, unknown, until there's listening carefully to each word and understand how much ignorance is there.

Not understanding, not enough. Not understanding what? Now. That object which is appearing, otherwise how can we say ignorance cannot understand anything? Not anything, just that which appears, all the time, of seeing hearing, that which is seen, heard, everything. Because we think that we hear the word, but at that moment the understanding of the word is that all the time, very soon after hearing, so it seems like we hear the words, not the sound. So we begin to understand what the Buddha taught, word by word, little by little, inner outer, external internal, what aspects.

Sa. Yes and I think you've reminded me it's clear that seeing here it's not seeing there, even though it's just seeing which sees but still different seeing, so the seeing that we call inner is different from the seeing that is out there, another's seeing even though it's just seeing. So it's always quite subtle so it's not just thinking about it but it's the reality at the moment of seeing that each seeing is different, each one rises and falls away, each one is khandha but only the seeing now can be understood if there are conditions and it's the same for vedana or any of the other nāma-khandhas.

Su. And what we are talking about can become true then when the right understanding has developed enough, that's why no hurry to do anything, because it's impossible for wrong understanding to let go of wrong understanding, it's impossible.

Sa. Like you say, each word we read, like we can read about the khandhas and inner and outer and each rūpa each vedana and so on, and so easy to quickly read, but each word has to be considered so carefully in many different aspects, many different ways.

Su. Even the first word, dhamma.


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