Citta and cetasikas, the factory producing ideas

(Transcript by Chanti, edited by Alberto)

[Ann] The question was, when one's killed one dies, I guess it's the cuti citta... somehow we were talking about jivitindriya, the life faculty...

A. Sujin: And we will never know  or understand the reality of killing or [any other] reality right now, if we still keep on thinking about situations.

We read a lot from Sutta, Vinaya, Abhidhamma, but what do we get from all these words? To understand that there is no self. And the absolute truth is different realities, the flux of the arising and falling away of all dhátus, elements. Uncontrollable. So, the point is to understand them as not me, not ours at all. No one there, like now, what appears? There is no understanding precisely about the reality which is seen as it is, but we keep on thinking in terms of people and things and situations. So if we do not have conditions enough to understand what appears now… (then) no understanding of the absolute realities, that are not self. And we have doubt and we keep on thinking about killing and other situations. From this life to other lives, we keep on thinking and thinking about situations. But it is time to understand whatever appears. Because it cannot appear to ignorance (moha) at all.

That is why, the moment when there is the realisation that now there is ignorance, and can there be moments with less and less ignorance of seeing? Otherwise we try to do and to follow what we've read and heard, about this and that all the time. But not of the reality, behind the scene. We might have heard a lot about different stories and suttas, [in] past, previous lives, but what about understanding whatever appears? If we understand more about that which appears, then we know that: nothing stays, nothing lasts. It is conditioned to arise. Beyond imagination, how rapid it is.

Just arising to see then, that’s all. It cannot perform any function, only seeing. Because you see that before a moment of seeing, there is a moment which does not see. Right? And after a moment of seeing, there is not that which performs the function of seeing; it only can experience the same object as that which sees; with vitakka cetasika. Without vitakka, it could not experience that which the previous moment saw at all. And that’s the way to develop the understanding of no self, no matter in what citta. More understanding about the way it is. That’s why it [sampaticchana] receives the object passed on, because the previous one [seeing] conditions the next one [sampaticchana]. So it has to experience the same [object], by vitakka. Thinks, receives that object. By nature. It cannot be another moment, other citta at all.

So we talk about the way náma and rúpa, citta and cetasika work, all the time.  With more and more understanding about no self. Like planting, the right view in the citta, our own citta, little by little. Until it can have more right understanding about whatever appears. Otherwise it is useless to learn a lot with the idea of self: ‘I understand about killing, it has to be cetanà, it has to be the being which is killed… ’-  or something like that.

Because we know already, but we don’t know the nature or the absolute reality which plays or arises and performs the function at that moment of killing at all. It is not I who kills. What kills… There must be a reality which must be citta and cetasikas, otherwise the body cannot do anything at all. And even if we say that the body cannot experience anything, it is not deep enough to know that even right now, each move cannot be done without citta and cetasikas. Because the body doesn’t know anything. It arises to be hard, to be sweet, to be heard as sound, as it is, it cannot change its characteristic because it does not have any idea. But citta conditions that [body] part, or that kind of rúpa to move or to speak, only in a split second, everything just in split second.

To know more, understand more about this moment. No matter by way of Vinaya, there must be citta, cetasikas, with such and such cetaná or wholesome or unwholesome realities. Suttanta, just one part of samsara. We don’t know our previous life, who we were, from time to time. And this [life] is going to be past life of next life. And when one will be born next life, no idea about this life at all. Even yesterday, who remembers? What did you do from morning to night, yesterday? All gone completely. What is left? It is there in citta, the kusala and akusala which has arisen, never lost because it conditions the next one. So, it passes on every accumulation of kusala and akusala to the next one, so very very rapidly. Comparing with now, how rapid it is. Whenever you see, there is the idea of someone's seeing, something is seen all the time. Not knowing about that, [the] factory: citta and cetasikas producing ideas: after seeing and then thinking.

That is why we learn about the vipáka. It is not the moment of having pain, or illness, it is now. And paññà can see and it doesn’t have to name: ‘this is vipáka’, at all. Because that is thinking, not the moment that is familiar with different námas. Now we use the word náma, but when it is the beginning of understanding reality, no word like náma. Because the characteristic of experiencing is there, to be learned to know that it experiences. No matter how many times we talk about náma, as citta and cetasikas, or: citta and cetasikas are náma, it's useless if there is no understanding of  this moment: the difference of that which is now experiencing and that which is experienced.

Part (ii)

A. Sujin: Because it is only words and people think that they learn a lot about names, different types of citta and cetasikas, but they don’t know that thát is not pariyatti: it has to be now, what is [there] now. No need  think about ‘oh, yes, it is náma which sees’, or ‘oh yes,  it is rúpa which is seen’. This is only saññá, memory, no understanding. But at moment of experiencing, from learning and accumulation of understanding from time to time, it conditions the experiencing of reality, which is just a little different, unnoticed if it's not [arising with] paññà because it's so natural.

When we talk about the kayanupassana satipatthana, vedanupassana satipatthana, cittanupassana satipatthana, it seems that there is the awareness of citta, actually it's not, it's only thinking about it. And as long as sati doesn’t arise, we just think about being aware, but [it's] not moment when it is really aware, when it (sati) arises.

So this is the knowledge which will lead to more and more understanding, deeper and deeper, of what we are talking about, like sati, or citta, or cetasika. And when there is the understanding of reality, at that moment no need to say that ‘seeing is vipàka’ because it (citta) arises differently from other moment, just arises by conditions and after that thinking a lot, it’s not seeing. By understanding that seeing is not thinking at all. One learns to understand different nàmas, different kinds of nàma, not from the book, but from experiencing [them]. So, understanding that nàma is not from the book, but through experiencing with awareness, but when awareness doesn’t arise, it is impossible to really understand that that (experiencing) is not self and that it has its own characteristic.

So, what’s the difference between moments when the experiencing, what we call kayaviññana, experiences hardness, no understanding as usual, like now, but when there is more and more understanding, unexpectedly awareness arises, so one can understand that moment which is arising.

And it seems like [they arise] together, like seeing and hearing, like [arising] together. So, no need to try, like ‘I’m trying to be aware, for an hour’ :) or less than that or more than that, but it is not the understanding at all.

So each word of the Teachings needs careful study, and respectfully. Because it is so true, so real, so deep, but there can be the development of understanding of what the Buddha was, the Enlightened One. What does it mean? Because without his Teachings we would not talk about seeing right now, hearing right now. Or the body, or the kaya, or the rúpa, as we have learned.

But we have to know the point, the purpose of learning or listening: to understand whatever appears, from knowing that: no understanding now, but it can be understood, rather than [the] reality which has fallen away, and which hasn’t come yet. Because, how can there be right understanding of that which does not appear? Only now. So the patience is there, sincerity or honesty is there, truthfulness is there with other paramis, not to go wrong, this is the best thing in life.

Because killing is [like] that, thinking, drinking, anything!

And without studying and developing understanding nothing can condition direct awareness right now. Because it keeps one going astray as usual, as it's been accumulated. So we learn to understand the difference between seeing and the other vipàkas which follows: sampaticchana, it needs vitakka, conditioned by kamma and things like that. Because these are not moments of thinking and we can separate or begin to understand vipàka and kusala and akusala, that they are different.

It has to be one’s own understanding, from experiencing, from hearing, considering and understanding.