Do meditators know what they are doing?

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(Excerpt from the Dhamma discussion with Ajahn Sujin on Zoom on Mon, May 10th 2021)

[A. Sujin] I don't think that it's easy to talk about Dhamma to those who are not interested in understanding the truth yet, like the prisoners (Jeff had mentioned his involvement in "Doing time, doing vipassana" courses), but we can be friendly and help them, be kind, and then talk about that which can be understood by them, little by little because in my life, many people, so many people do not have interest in studying, learning the truth, they just want to get what they want, trying to have something helping them to be successful, but that is gone, not permanent at all, in life, just [there] for a moment and then gone, but they wish so much to have that, one moment of that.

So it's not for all, but only for those who have accumulation to understand, to see the value of learning about it, not just the words but the truth which is now. So the words of the Buddha who has enlightened the truth, tell about the truth in life now, every moment [can] be known as he has enlightened: no one there at all. I don't know whether you are interested in this point or others, any word, any subject.

[Jeff] This point is very good for myself as well as them because it's another point I bring up to them is just that... they want to sit down and meditate, they come to meditation because they want to learn to sit down, meditate and calm themselves and then they're just going to go out and live their life which is what most people who meditate do.

[A. Sujin] But I think that they cannot have time to think about the words at all, but it can be natural or easy talk, like what are you doing while meditating, we can ask: what are you doing? [Seeing] whether that person can answer, what he's doing, and we can talk about: why, what for, is it worthwhile? Or what about doing other things, even sila and dana or learning or reading, whatever that can bring about understanding because I think that anyone who practices cannot answer [the question] what is he or she doing, and we can talk about what they are doing more, little by little, to see whether it's good, worthwhile or better doing other things, useful, rather than sit, sitting and doing what? To let them see what is more important, more worthwhile then just sit and what are they doing while sitting? What are you doing?

I think that we cannot know his[/her] accumulations but the best thing to help them is just learning to know how much interest in life, for that person, so, I think that to be good friend is the best thing in life. So, since we don't know his accumulations we can talk about his life, his family and then [we] can show that everything is not permanent, depending on conditions.

For example, little by little, not to understand the truth without the term like anatta or any word, but it shows about the understanding of the way life must be or has to be, that it changes all the time, not permanent and not under anyone's control at all and being good friend, talking about his family, his life, how to remedy or how to make it better for such and such thinking, helping and so on. Until he can be more interested in understanding better about the cause and the effect of his life. And while he's in prison the best thing to help him is according to his interests and usefulness for him, like helping them to understand the way to use this or to do that, like making something for sale for use or for helping the others, little by little, until he is ready to be good.

And better than that is to understand, more than just being good, depending on times, that's why we have to be so patient to be good friend to everyone, otherwise it's useless, talking about the truth when that person is not interested in knowing [it]. So, according to his interests, we follow [them], and show up the truth little by little and the benefits of being wholesome and helping thinking about his family, how to go on in his life with his children or parents and so on. Until he can see that the best thing is to be friendly.