Conceptual vitakka is not the samma-sankappa of the eightfold path

Transcript by Huong from 2016-01-21-am Dhamma discussion, edited by Alberto.

A Sujin: We have to understand the function and characteristic of each cetasika, they arise together, so how can they be known? Because at this moment they arise together and fall away together, but by studying carefully, it is the beginning of understanding each cetasika, the difference between cetasikas.

For example , phassa is not vitakka, right? And phassa arises with each citta, it's a condition for the arising of citta, so we try very hard to think about vitakka, if [we think that] it's only thinking that's not right at all, but if we think about touching, just a little after phassa because phassa is just the very first moment of touching and of experiencing the object, that is not enough, just phassa, that's why it (citta) needs other cetasikas, even [it's just] for a moment. And vitakka is there, after seeing or the ten consciousnesses which see, hear and so on.

So, as much as we can have the intellectual understanding, it's [that] vitakka's touching is different from phassa's. So at moments when awareness arises by conditions there may be doubts: what is there, is it me? That is not right understanding because it's still the idea of ignorance and I trying to find out what is what, but when it is moment for conditions to condition right awareness: it has to be with or from right understanding only, enough, as sacca-ñana, without hoping or wishing, expectations or anything because it has to go along all the way with detachment, more and more, little by little, gradually. So at this moment is there any touching?

Who knows phassa? Phassa is not known, but when pañña is there and vitakka is there, it touches with right understanding, so fast, but it's there. That's why samma sankappa is one of eightfold path because there must be right understanding as condition there, together, because we touch conceptually, but it is not the vitakka (i.e. samma sankappa) which touches, because the citta just touches the softness or hardness through body-sense, and phassa is there and vitakka is there, but no understanding. But when there is more and more understanding about: all are dhammas, realities, conditioned dhammas, at moment of touching with samma sankappa, right understanding is added, it's moment of understanding that which hadn't been understood before when touching. And this is the difference between with pañña or without pañña. Vitakka can arise without pañña and vitakka can be one of eightfold path, with pañña of different degrees. That's why when it touches more and more, pañña develops more and more.

So, vitakka is the factor of pañña, [included] in the pañña group, while the others [path factors] are [grouped with] sila or samadhi. Only vitakka is there [included] as part or with pañña, together with pañña. So it depends on this moment, there is touching, no understanding. So it's vitakka which arises and falls away in split seconds but when pañña is there we don't count how many moments, nimitta is there, but vitakka touches which right understanding, so it knows, or experiences hardness, just that, and when pañña has developed, higher and higher, no more, just touches, softness, hardness: gone, everything's gone completely. Otherwise there would never be the path leading to the eradication of ignorance and the idea of self from any object, at any time, by conditions.

It is samma sankappa all the way, depending or right understanding which accompanies it. Reality cannot be changed, it has its own characteristic, its own function, its own manifestation and its own proximate cause, for its arising. Even they arise together, but what is the proximate cause for what?