Understand ignorance and attachment in order to let it go, otherwise it's there

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(Excerpt from the EN-VN Dhamma discussion with Ajahn Sujin on Zoom on Wed, Sep 14th 2022)

[Jonothan] Ajahn, the subject was either phassa or judging others...

[A. Sujin] And phassa is arising with ignorance now, about the truth of what is there, just keep on thinking, judging and so on, no understanding of what is there at all. And can anyone just keep on thinking about that or is it gone? Would anyone like to understand it, the moment when it's there and gone, or just keep on thinking about this and that all the time? Is it now thinking about, judging again? Why not? Nothing is permanent, [but] depending on conditions only. Would you like to judge again and again? There are many things to be known rather than thinking about the past and the future. What is there now? Is it still thinking about judging?

What is there now is so close, closer than thinking about people and things, even someone is so close, but it's not as close as seeing right now. Can anyone just see dots instead of people and things? It's only a moment and then gone, no matter what. Whatever arises is unexpected, is that true? But the absolute truth is that it cannot be permanent at all.

So, isn't wasting time thinking about judging? And it's gone already. No understanding of the impermanence of whatever arises, can it be known? But it's not appearing as it's gone, instantly, without understanding what is what at all. So begin to develop the understanding of what is there in order to understand the truth of life.

Is there phassa right now? Can anyone realize the truth of phassa? Even it's there it's not known at all.

The citta, the experiencing of what is there now experienced is not known at all. The reality which experiences an object right now is not known, so how can that which conditions feeling right now as phassa be known?

And at moment of thinking about experiencing phassa, is there no desire, attachment to know? Can anything now appear as it is because of wishing to experience it? And the truth of that moment is attachment, just wanting to know. So, it's there all the time, lobha, just wanting this or that or that or this. And there cannot be understanding as long as desire or attachment is there, hindering instantly. Without ignorance there cannot be attachment, anytime [when] wishing, wanting, ignorance is there. Even when one gets something that one likes to have, that moment there isn't understanding of the truth.

So at the moment of wanting to understand this or that, can it be moment of understanding? And who knows ignorance is there as well. Anyone doesn't want to have ignorance, but still there is ignorance when there is no understanding of the truth of what is there as it is. In order to let go of ignorance and attachment there must be understanding of it, otherwise it's there. If there's no desire to understand this or that in particular, what about: that which is now seeing is just a reality, so real, which can experience what is there which is seen.

Remember the words that the Buddha said: all realities are anatta, no one. If there is no understanding of the reality which experiences what is seen now, there cannot be the appearing of that which is now seeing. And as long as seeing is not known as it is, just a reality conditioned to arise just to see and then gone, there must be ideas about it all the time.

So, what is the nature of seeing, what is the nature of thinking, what is the nature of liking? No selection to understand this or that, but understanding that there must be moment of experiencing an object, and [for] whatever arises or is there, there must be conditions for its arising.

So, what is moment of judging? Is there I who judges or someone who is judged? That moment is gone unknowingly, but [there is] still the idea of I and [of] the person.

So learn to understand the nature which arises and experience, little by little, otherwise nothing can be erased or got rid of the idea of self.

So, instead of thinking about phassa which cannot be known at all as long as there's no understanding of the reality which arises and experiences an object, [its] different nature, understanding that phassa is a condition for seeing to arise, but no intention to understand it directly. Can there be a moment of experiencing phassa directly? This is the question. There is phassa right now for sure, from learning the truth about the nature of seeing there must be phassa, but can phassa itself be known directly as not anyone or anything? So, can it or cannot?

[Hang] Phassa cannot be directly understood...

[A. Sujin] Really?

[Hang] OK... it can be understood directly...

[A. Sujin] So, it depends on conditions, that is the firm understanding of conditions. So no wish, no desire to directly experience it because all depends on conditions. And this is the very subtle conditions for everything, it has to be unexpectedly.

Can breath be the object of understanding, directly? So, without phassa there cannot be moments of experiencing breath at all. That's why all moments of experiencing need phassa to contact whatever is there, known little by little. But instead of pinpointing whether now phassa is known or is not known, it has to be the understanding of the nature of reality which experiences an object, otherwise it would just be idea about everything, that's why namas, rupas have to be known as: nama is nama, the reality which experiences, no matter what, with attachment or aversion or feeling, pleasant or unpleasant. Just learn to let go desire or attachment to this or that by being aware of just one reality at a time as what experiences or what cannot experience, and these are the words about it, but when it's there no words because it's moment of directly experiencing it, there is touching right now, there is seeing right now, there's thinking right now and at the moment when it's there, there can be a moment of beginning to understand the nature of that which experiences the object, but it hasn't been directly known for a long long time is samsara. So it takes quite a long long time to develop the understanding of the nature of that which has no shape, no form at all, but only moment of experiencing an object when that object is there.

Usually in a day or in life there are moments of thinking about that which is the object of experiencing, like hardness is hard, it appears as hardness, but what about that which experiences that hardness? And now right understanding is gradually developing to understand the nature which experiences, little by little, unknowingly. At moment of attending to the characteristic which is hard, no words, but it's the moment of beginning to understand the difference between that which experiences hardness and hardness [itself], one by one. So natural and so very gradual that it cannot be known how much it develops and right understanding is so true to the object at the very moment, whether it is the beginning to understand the characteristic which experiences or that which cannot experience.

The understanding of the difference between direct awareness and understanding of the object, [that] is not just learning about the truth intellectually. But without having firmer understanding, more confidence of the truth, there cannot be moments of beginning to understand that which experiences and that which cannot experience, in a moment.

For example, seeing right now is there many many moments, unknown, but when there are conditions for a moment of considering the truth, it is moment of just beginning to attend to that characteristic with intellectual understanding, little by little, and that is moment of yoniso, right, manasikara. Manasikara is there as phassa is there, but it cannot be directly known in the beginning.

So, what is known in the beginning of developing understanding? Anything which appears as: that is the reality which is experiencing an object, no matter it's attachment or aversion, pleasant feeling or unpleasant feeling, no wish, no desire to have it arising, but it's conditioned just at that very moment, to be moment of beginning to understand, little by little, that which is there as: it's that which has to be known as it is, otherwise it will be taken for self, again. It's the beginning of attending to that object which wasn't attended at all before. That cannot be moment of very sharp understanding to let go of that reality as not-self. It has to begin in life, no matter what is there, to be known as: it's there, a reality, but its nature it's not clear yet.

So now, what is there? Beginning to pay attention or not yet? Only right understanding knows exactly what that moment is. Even in a day no matter what time, very exciting, very pleasant, all depends on if it's there known as: just a reality, in the beginning.

If in a day there's no moment of even just thinking about it, how can it be known? So how much confidence of the truth that only that which is known by thinking in the beginning, but it can condition, what was heard before, apply to that moment as: just a reality, in the beginning, only a reality. And by then it begins to develop the understanding of that which experiences, little by little.

So, how much patience is there to begin to develop the understanding of that which is there as: just a reality, otherwise the intellectual understanding is not strong enough to condition even just a moment of not forgetting what we have heard about, that which has now appearing. Isn't this the only way to develop right understanding [of that] which now is not known yet?

Even the right path is not known because it's so very subtle, beginning little by little, developing little by little, unexpectedly, but pañña begins to understand how much ignorance is there, accumulated from life to life, eons and eons. Even just beginning to attend to the characteristic which is there as it is, as one begins, so very little in the beginning, but right understanding get so firm that it knows there's no other way at all to understand what is there now as it is. And that's the parami, to understand little by little that what we have heard is there when it's there.

So pañña understands it, not anyone at all, so it's the beginning to understand what is what, pañña or ignorance and attachment. Be true to this moment as it is, sacca parami, and can it be by will? See, ignorance again and again and again when pañña it's not strong enough. Is there viriya now? Is there phassa now? Is there manasikara now? All are there, [each one] not known as it is. So, can it be known?

[Tam B.] Yes, when understanding is strong enough.

[A. Sujin] That's it, only then. So there can be the understanding of how much ignorance and akusala is accumulated from life to life, even right now it's there. Without parami it's impossible to realize the truth of this moment, the truth is hidden by ignorance and attachment on and on and on. So viriya and all kinds of paramis have to develop on and on and on, until it can understand what is there as it is, stage by stage. And the strong confidence, so confident, is the basis or foundation for pañña to understand better and clearer.

[Tam B.] Can you elaborate on this point?

[A. Sujin] Yes, pañña needs all paramis, patience (khanti), viriya, sacca, adhitthana, nekkhama, to develop, until there can be a little more understanding directly of the truth right now as it is, no one. Doesn't it take quite a long long time to realize the truth?

Is seeing and all realities now appearing well? Because it has to be appearing well, because of pañña understanding its truth. And what is the meaning of: what is there appears well? As just that which experiences an object, at that very moment no one there at all. That's why it appears well, just one characteristic of a reality at a time. And why doesn't it appear well? As long as it doesn't appear as only one reality, it cannot appear well. That's why when there is the understanding of one reality there can be moment of being aware of that reality as only just one reality. So now realities do not appear as just one reality yet, that's why it cannot appear well. And can it appear well without understanding? Without understanding there cannot be anything appearing well at all because it appears in ignorance, so how can it appear well as it is. So right understanding of that reality has to be there in order to know that it is only one reality which is that reality. So, does it appear well now? And when will it appear well?

[Tam B.] So, when there is the understanding developed to directly experience that reality, one at a time, Ajahn.

[A. Sujin] Because it appears well at moment of satipatthana, but it doesn't appear [so] well, so clear because it's only the beginning of understanding the different moments between the pariyatti and patipatti. So pañña understands the difference between the pariyatti and patipatti and pativedha. And that is yoniso manasikara which considers, but is manasikara pañña, right understanding?

[Tam B.] No, it's another reality.

[A. Sujin] Beginning to understand realities one by one, that they cannot be the same. Isn't satipatthana very natural, any moment when it's there? No time to change [it], right? That is the right understanding, firmer and firmer, little by little. No one is developing right understanding but right understanding develops by itself, little by little. That's why firmer understanding of the truth develops on and on and on and on.

The truth is always no one there at all, only different realities arising unexpectedly by conditions. Even now or any time, more confidence of the truth: no-one no-thing, all are different realities, arising and falling away never to return at all. Letting go of the idea of things and people and I, little by little, naturally. So natural that it is not known at all, how it works, realities arising and falling all the time.