Understanding the subtlety of all realities right now

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(Excerpt from the EN-CN Dhamma discussion with Ajahn Sujin on Zoom - Wed Mar 8th 2023 am)

00:00 - Understanding the subtlety of all realities right now

[A. Sujin] So, is there interest now?

[Vincent] There's interest to understand the Teachings.

[A. Sujin] And other kinds of interest?

[Vincent] There's interest to improve my English.

[A. Sujin] That's why even interest itself is so very subtle because it's so subtle, that's why the Buddha taught about how many cittas arise with interest and how many cittas do not arise with interest, unknown. That's why the understanding of the interest itself is so far because there are so many degrees of interest. As much as we can know some level of interest is that: I'm not interested in such and such, but in truth there is interest with many cittas before saying those words.

Can there be the understanding of the subtlety of all realities right now: to not underestimate [them] or careless to understand the very subtle characteristic of each reality. That's why before there can be the moment of beginning to get accustomed to the characteristics of realities as realities, no one and no thing at all, it takes quite a long time to be truthful too, to the truth of what is there now, how much understanding of it, or having just a very little understanding of it? Otherwise one might think that one understands it already and so on, but in truth: just hearing about it, not even knowing its characteristic when it's there, as just a reality, [as] we have learned.

02:10 - Just hearing the word and understanding what it means, but it's there unknown

So, is there interest now? Is it known? Because [now] there are many realities together! So, is interest known now? [Yes] Interest or just hearing the term, the word interest and understanding what it is, what it means, but it's there unknown.

[Vincent] [It's] only in words, that I think I know chanda, but in reality no.

[A. Sujin] That is true because without hearing about it at all no one can understand the truth even there is interest at that very moment which is interested in whatever is there as the object. That's why we learn to understand what is there to understand when it appears as it is. And is there intention now? Shall we just talk about the characteristic of the reality which is intention, is there intention now?

[Vincent] There must be because there there is talking or action.

03:39 - Nothing is known if we don't talk about it

[A. Sujin] See, if you didn't know anything about it at all, if we hadn't heard about it, no idea at all about it, but since there is the understanding of the moment, what are there? There is interest and there is chanda and there is attention, but learning to understand when it's there to be known: if it's not there appearing it cannot be known. So, is intention the same as attention and interest? Are they there together? When? [Now.] See, nothing is known if we don't talk about it, if there is no understanding of each different one, how can there be the understanding that even right now there are many realities arising together, but only one reality can be object of understanding.

04:48 - The beginning of the path of letting go of wrong understanding of self

If there is no understanding of each different reality, how can there be the letting go of that as: it's me intending or attending or [being] interested. Even they are there now together, see, no understanding of any moment at all without beginning to study carefully that a reality cannot be another reality at all. And this is the beginning of the path of letting go [of] ignorance, attachment and wrong understanding of self, very gradually, little by little, at moment of understanding, stage by stage. It's not just wanting to understand, "I" understand, "my" understanding. That is not the the result of understanding the truth at all because it's the ignorance and attachment there, unknown.

The understanding of what interest is, attention is or intention is can condition moments of getting closer, nearer to the reality which is there, which is not known from the very beginning. Otherwise there's no other way to understand that which is so close, [the] closest, no thing is as close as that right now at moment of seeing, [not] interest or attention or intention.

06:34 - Understanding what is there so close now, which hasn't been known yet

And the point of listening to the words of the Buddha [is] to understand what is there so close now, which hasn't been known yet. Where is intention?

[Vincent] Not sure about the question.

[A Sujin] Whenever is there to be known, how can it be known if there's no understanding [of]: where is it? Is it far away, is it out or what? We've learned about it, that it arises with citta, right? And where about is citta now? Where is it? So, wherever citta is, cetana, intention is there [too and] manasikara, attention, right? And when there is understanding of citta, understanding is just there, at citta, not at other places at all. Nowhere, nowhere at all because it's only that which experiences an object. That's why there can be the understanding to be true to the truth, if there's not yet understanding [of] the reality which experiences an object right now as not self.

08:13 - Beginning to develop the understanding of each different reality as not self

So, learn with careful consideration to understand the truth, the subtelty of whatever is there now appearing, that it can be known little by little, just one characteristic at a time. Is cetana, intention, appearing now?

[Vincent] It arises but it does not appear.

[A. Sujin] See, that's why it cannot be known until it appears, is that right? [Yes.] And what appears now? [Hearing.] Okay, but hearing is not known yet, so how can another reality be known when it does not appear at all now, even it's there? When intention or attention or interest does not appear and someone tries to experience it, right or wrong? That's why just learn to understand what is there now, even it's not known, but it's learning, beginning to develop the understanding of each different one as not self. No expectations for what will arise to be known, all depends on conditions. That's why that's the understanding, a little more and a little more, of anattaness, no one there, no thing can be controlled because actually whatever arises depends on its proper conditions. And this is what the Buddha taught from the very beginning, pariyatti, patipatti, pativedha.

10:10 - Just learning about it while it's there now, unknown

So, anything can be learned to understand its truth, but it's not known yet, just learning about it while it's there now, unknown. As much as we can know, it's the characteristic of cetana and manasikara and chanda, to know that it's there, but it's not known yet, as long as it doesn't appear, even it's there, by conditions. Does aversion appear in daily life? [Yes.] Is there any understanding of it? As long as it's: "I am angry", "I have aversion", it's not understanding or learning to get acquainted to the characteristic which is not self, yet. That's why without understanding of the truth of each reality, realities appear to ignorance and attachments, depending on conditions.