The subtlety of that which is now experiencing an object

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(Excerpt from the EN-CN Dhamma discussion with Ajahn Sujin on Zoom - Sun Mar 12th 2023 am)

00:00 - Talking about reality

[A. Sujin] So now, I think that it's time to begin to have a little more understanding of reality because you see that we're talking about reality. So, before going on to any kind of reality there can be the understanding of the word that we have heard so many times long ago, but it's time to begin again, to start again to have a little more understanding.

So now, it's easy to say the word nama and rupa, but the reality, the nature of a nama right now? For example, there must be a reality which experiences an object right now, right? We don't talk about anything yet, just the reality which experiences an object, is [it] there now? We don't think about seeing or hearing or hardness or softness, just a reality which is real right now. Is there a reality which experiences an object right now? It's not easy at all to think about the reality which sees or hears, the reality which experiences an object, but what about the characteristic of the pure reality which arises and experiences an object, not seeing yet, not hearing yet. Is there a reality, no matter when and where, arising and experiencing an object?

02.02 - When nothing is appearing with citta
Otherwise we just think about the moment when there is seeing, that there must be a reality which experiences that which is seen and that which is heard, at the moment of seeing and hearing, but [even] without those moments, what about the nature of that which arises and experiences an object from birth to death, non-stop. And that is the moment of beginning to understand the nature of that which arises and experiences an object only, not [just] at the moment when it sees or hears, but [even] without seeing and hearing... it's there! Beginning to understand the distinction between the reality which experiences the object, no matter when it arises, it has to experience an object, and the object which is experienced, no matter it's seen or not. And it's there to be known when there's nothing appearing with it.

It's the beginning of getting closer and closer to understand the nature which experience an object, never lost, from birth to death, anytime, any moment different ones, but no matter what and when, it's the reality itself arising an experiencing an object, but when it's known its object is not sound or sight or anything. Is now understanding beginning to get closer and closer to understand the reality which experience an object, [so] that: nothing with it at all, only the moment of experiencing an object is real at that very moment because it performs the function of experiencing an object.

04:11 - Understanding what is there so close that ignorance cannot understand it
So, it's not just the words: seeing is nama and that which is seen is rupa, that's [just] the word, but the understanding of the reality which experiences an object all the time... it's not known yet. So, each word of the Enlightened One has to be considered again and again in order to understand the truth of a reality. Right now, is there any understanding that there is a reality which experiences an object? And the object which impinges on the eye-base and ear-base and so on, the five sense-doors, conditions a moment of experiencing that, which is different from when it does not experience such objects. Without careful consideration of the truth it's impossible to get closer to understand the reality which experiences an object only, whenever it arises its function is just to experience an object. For example, at moment of birth there must be the reality which arises and experience the object even the object is not known. So, even now, whether the object is known or appearing or not there must be the reality which arises and experiences an object, and the object is different when a different reality impinges on the base, like eye-base, for example. Is there a little more understanding of what is there which is so close, so very close, that ignorance cannot understand it at all. Otherwise at the moment of seeing or hearing, it's just the idea that seeing is a reality and the object which is seen is another reality. Without beginning to get closer to understand the reality which experiences an object right now, it's hidden. So, each word of the Buddha conditions understanding from the very beginning and then it goes on with more consideration about its truth until it can get closer to understand even just one word like dhamma or citta or cetasika or rupa or nibbana.

07:09 - The subtlety of that which is now experiencing an object
That's why there can be the moment of considering what is there, little by little, when there's more hearing and understanding of a reality, no matter it is nama or rupa. Otherwise there can just be talking about it, but without understanding the reality which is there at that very moment. For example, talking about seeing, is there any understanding of that which sees as just the reality which experiences an object? But at the very moment the object is that which is seen. So, only understanding that seeing is that which sees and the object [is that] which is seen is not enough at all. And this is the way to understand what the Buddha said after his Enlightenment: all dhammas are so very subtle. And all dhammas are in daily life, seeing itself is subtle and that which is seen is also subtle, even they are different realities they are all subtle. If there's no confidence of the truth of realities as being so very subtle, how can there be the understanding of that which is there now as it is?

So, what is seeing, it's the reality which sees, is that enough? The Buddha didn't teach in order that anyone would just remember or understand his words, but beginning to see the subtlety of dhammas, of the world, of the way it appears, not as it is. And a little more understanding is the beginning, it's another step of understanding, little by little, very very gradually. For example right now, there is a little more understanding of the subtlety of that which now is experiencing an object, that it is different from [the] moment when it sees or hears, which experience different objects, that's all. Is there any moment without the reality which experiences an object? No answer? Is it known? What moment? [No.] But is there any moment? Unknown, when there's not enough understanding, but it can be known gradually, so very gradually, to let go doubt about it and ignorance about it and attachment trying to know it. They are all there as no one, all are dhammas that we begin to learn to understand, the reality which is not known, but when it's there, can it be known or not yet? So we begin again, a little more understanding on and on and on, to get closer and closer to what is there now, even it now experiences an object. It's there now for sure, whether it's known or not yet.

10:56 - Understanding intellectually what is there now but not understanding its nature
And when there's the understanding of the nature of that which arises and experiences an object, there can be understanding, no matter of what kind of reality is right there, by conditions. But when there isn't a little more understanding of the truth it keeps on thinking about this and that, understanding intellectually about what is there now, but not understanding the nature of it at all. That's why in order to understand any reality, just consider the truth of it, just one at a time, one reality at a time, for example, the reality which experiences an object, the chief of experiencing the object is there all the time, does anyone know that yet? [No.] But from now on the understanding develops about: there must be a reality right now or anytime in life, from birth to death, arising and experiencing an object, the chief of experiencing what is there, so the world is known by that which is the chief of experiencing reality, a reality or an object. Understanding the characteristic of a reality which is the chief of experiencing what we take for the whole world or just a reality and we call that citta, different from other reality which arises and experience the object, but not all the time as the chief reality which experiences the object from moment to moment. And without understanding the characteristic of the chief of reality which experienced an object, can there be citta-anupassana-satipatthana? That's why hearing any word and thinking that [there] is understanding of that word... it's not enough, because each word of the Teachings of the Buddha represents a reality which is there right now which is not known until it's known little by little, to realize its truth, the absolute truth, the ultimate truth of: whatever arises falls away.

When there is no clear understanding of what is there now as it is can there be the understanding of the term nibbana? Just the word nibbana, can there be the understanding of it, without understanding what is there now? So, what is there at moments of thinking about the word nibbana? No understanding, but just wanting to hear about it, is that the purpose of the Teachings of the Buddha? Is that the way to respect the truth, the Teacher?