Citta, the innermost of life

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(Transcribed excerpt from the Dhamma discussion with Ajahn Sujin on Zoom on Mon Oct 2nd 2023.)

00:00 - Beginning to consider that which is behind that which is appearing
[A. Sujin] Talking about it again and again and again... what appears? At moment of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching it's that which appears, but that which experiences has to be there [too], each moment, otherwise what is now appearing could not appear at all. Beginning to consider that which is behind that which is appearing: there must be a reality experiencing it, while what appears is visible object or sound because when they are not there: no seeing, no hearing at all, but at moment of sound appearing or visible object appearing, there must be a reality which, at that very moment, experiences it as it is, but it's arising and falling away so very rapidly, so no time to think about that which experiences now what is seen or appears or is heard right now.

That's why we begin to talk about it, again and again, to condition the moment of beginning to attend to the characteristic of that which is there from birth, experiencing whatever is there, no matter what, no matter through what doorway or no doorway at all. It's that which is there, but at the moment when visible object appears, it does not appear, at moment of liking or disliking appearing, it does not appear, that which is the chief in experiencing of the object for liking or attachment or aversion, no matter what is there in life, it's there all the time, without it nothing can appear at all, no world.

01:12 - Getting closer to the innermost of life
That's why we begin to understand the truth: it's there, hidden each moment, even right now. That's why the words about it can be condition to just think about it, that it's there, but its characteristic does no appear because no thought about it: just keep on thinking around it, but it's not yet the moment of beginning to attend to it, little by little, getting closer and closer to the innermost of life. That's why we learn to understand what is meant by different degrees of understanding: when it's just the intellectual understanding about the truth that it's there now, it's there, all the time. It can condition moment of beginning to consider the moment, just even intellectually, before seeing, before what appears and is appearing right now, it's there already, but the object of experiencing is different by conditions. When there's no visible object impinging on the eye-base, it still has the object from birth, [it's still] arising and falling, [it] keeps on experiencing only that object, but when time comes to experience the other object, it's there, the moment of what[ever] appears, it sees that object, it performs its function from the moment of birth: the chief of experiencing the object, no matter through the eye or the ear or the body, all depends on conditions. That's why beginning to attend, naturally, unknowingly now, it conditions the moment of thinking about it more and more, by conditions, until it's time, with patience: not to do anything, but to begin to understand by conditions, attending to the characteristics of that with experiences the object, by conditions. That's why it takes quite a long time to get acquainted with that which is there unknown, to be known, little by little: gradually there can be a little more understanding.

04:33 - Understanding doesn't mind about the words but without the words it cannot be understood
So we come to the word explained, how can there be the understanding of the meaning of the word without understanding? It's impossible, no matter what word. For example: the application of satipatthana, or: it applies, what is that? Because the word is the word, but the understanding of the word understands without thinking about the word, by way of its meaning or grammar or just its language and so on. But to begin to understand, it is not like what is meant by "application" or "applying", but what about it: because it's there. When there is no word about it, it cannot help any understanding of the truth of it right now, that it sees or it hears or it thinks. So now, it's time to begin again and again and again, to think that the reality which experiences the object cannot understand anything, but the understanding from hearing, considering, doesn't mind about the words, but without the words it cannot be understood.

05:50 - A little bit closer to the truth of that which is there that never appeared at all before
That's why beginning to understand the word which means the truth of what is there, for example, citta is the chief, it cannot understand, but another reality, hearing, considering what is there now appearing, that what are there, not just only one reality, but they are not known: it has to be only one moment of understanding a reality as it is. That's why understanding begins after considering what's been heard, carefully, but that's not enough at all because it's just attending to the meaning about that which is there, not yet the moment of understanding exactly, precisely, what is there now which we are talking about, until time comes to understand, little by little, that there is a reality at moment of whatever is appearing and it's that which experiences whatever object. Understanding the meaning of the experiencing, not just the word, but the reality which experiences, which knows, which conditioned that object to appear because it experiences that. A little bit of understanding conditioning the moment of getting a little bit closer to the truth of that which is there that never appeared at all before.

07:25 - Not enough at all, even vipassana-ñana: so very quickly, as rapidly as now
But when time comes, with patience and understanding from hearing again, not just once, again and again, until the attention begins to attend to the characteristic on and on and on, until it's time to understand it directly, and that is patipatti: it understands directly the characteristic of that which is now there, unknown before. Only once it's not enough, no matter how many moments in life: it's not enough because of ignorance and attachment and all kinds of kilesas having been developed or accumulated so much, to hinder, to cover up the truth of what is there, even right now, and just talking about it, and getting closer and closer to understand it. And that's why the understanding has different degrees, now we are talking about the intellectual understanding, [which] will condition the moment of direct understanding on and on and on, little by little, so gradual, until it is the moment of realization of the truth, vipassana-ñana. From what? Moments of understanding, little by little, and [even] once it is vipassana-ñana, so very quickly, as rapidly as now: not enough at all.

That's why there must be conditions for that moment to arise, experience, not just only one more, but many many moments, by conditions. And before it can be such like that level of understanding, by conditions, unexpectedly, only by conditions, who can manage or who can do anything for it to arise again? Impossible. And that is the understanding of the truth, to be patient, so much, no one can imagine how much ignorance and kilesas hinder all the time, until the understanding begins to understand that without understanding what is there right now it's impossible to let go of wrong understanding and ignorance, even one's heard a lot about this, but never enough at all. The condition is not as much as the accumulation of akusala: eons and eons and eons ago.

08:21 - Paramis have to be there in order to let go of attachment which is so very tricky
That's why the understanding gets stronger or firmer, to understand that what is there now or anytime is anatta: by conditions only. Until - think about until, how long will it be - it's so natural, understanding what is there in life, little by little, and it knows that that is not enough. So, we do good deeds and know that without moments of a kusala there are moments of akusala all the time. That's why the understanding of the subtlety of realities right now before it can be understood, stage by stage, until it appears: again not enough, again not enough. Until it becomes so very very keen to understand what is there in daily life, common life, natural life, as it is. How long will it take but it has to be like this: viriya parami, sacca parami, khanti parami, nekkhama parami or adhitthana parami have to be there, in order to let go of attachment, which is so very tricky, and only pañña can understand how much is there in different forms which only pañña can see, understanding it, how craftily is hidden all the time, in daily life.

11:53 - Firm confidence conditions the moment of being patient
That's why there are many stages of understanding: as vipassana-ñana and ñata-pariñña and tirana-pariñña in daily life, before there can be a little more understanding which [is] only understanding itself, letting go, by itself, naturally, as much as it's developed. So now is the development of right understanding of what is there, from the very beginning, understanding how subtle it is, how long it will take, time, to be truthful to what is there by conditions, no one there at all. Because of the clinging and wrong understanding, taking whatever is there as some thing or "I" because no one there, so it's I, it's me who sees now. That's why in order to understand the reality which is the chief of experiencing an object right now, it's just like any reality because even attachment is there, but it's taken for "my attachment", and how many moments of attachment in a day? So, how long? No one can imagine how long [it takes] to let it go, little by little, so very gradually, secretly, deeply, suddenly. But the firm confidence conditions the moment of being patient, not to try, not to hope, but to just understand what is there because it appears already, by conditions, it doesn't matter whether arises and falls away, how many moments.

So what can appear, naturally, is only the nimitta of what is there, arising and falling away, so no one can imagine the truth, that it is just like that. This is the firm confidence of the truth, to let go. Even when we're talking about citta, the chief of experiencing, even it does not appear, but is the moment of beginning to understand. So each moment of understanding about the truth right now, no matter by way of intellectual understanding, or direct understanding, or vipassana-ñana, it's not all the time: just very shortly and the gone, until it's strong enough, firm enough, keen enough, wise enough: at moments when it understands [that] whatever is there is there at different moments, different realities, by conditions. And that is not yet enough to let go because the ignorance and attachment is so enormous, only pañña can understand.

15:03 - The experiencing begins to be object of attention
Without understanding what is there right now, naturally, by conditions, nothing can let go of the idea of self or some thing. So we are talking about that which is there all the time, the experiencing, beginning to be object of attention, little by little, by conditions. Otherwise, if we don't talk about it at all, how can there be moments of understanding that it's there right now, experiencing what appears, each moment in life. And it has to be understanding gradually by the three degrees of understanding: the pariyatti, patipatti and the pativedha. And this is the point of listening to the truth, otherwise ignorance cannot understand the truth of what is there, now or anytime at all.