Ahirika, unashamed of not understanding the truth of now
(Excerpt from the EN-VN Dhamma discussion with Ajahn Sujin on Zoom on Sun May 12th 2024.)
[Q] Hiri is the shame of akusala and ottappa is the fear of akusala. So can they arise with domanassa (unpleasant mental feeling)?
[A. Sujin] When you use the word shame, what is there?
[Q] Usually we feel some negative feeling.
[A. Sujin] Unpleasant moment or pleasant moment?
[Q] Usually we think of unpleasant moment.
[A. Sujin] That's the way we talk about, the usage of that word,but the truth, the reality is far from any word at all. Because there must be considering about the nature of the truth of what is there. For example, the cloth is clean, but when someone puts something on it, when it's black, some might not like it, but when it's other color, someone might like it, to be painted with such color. But thinking about when there's nothing there, only clean cloth, no dots, no color, no dirtiness at all. And the moment when it's there with dots, black dots or blue or ugly dots, and at the same time different pleasant colors are there as rose and sky and mountains and so on. How can there be the moment of understanding the difference between what is there? So when we use the word shame, something has been done or something there is very shameful. So at that moment it is akusala, unpleasant moment, isn't it? Or, do you like being ashamed? So it's different from the daily usage of shame, when we use the word shame. But shame, when is wholesome, is seeing the dirtiness as it's dirty, it's not clean. No matter what is there, black or pink, it doesn't matter, it's not clean. That's why when we talk about the reality, which is wholesome, it is wholesome because it doesn't want to get closer to any dirtiness.
Ashamed to lie, stealing and so on, until it's shame of being ignorant and being attached to no matter what, even so very pleasant. That's why learn to understand the difference between wholesomeness and unwholesomeness. Kusala is quite different from akusala. So at moment of akusala, enjoying watching TV or the movies, the play... is there shame, at that moment? Because it's moment of akusala!
That's why without right understanding which sees the difference between akusala and kusala, it's the moment of shame, for not understanding the truth and so on. It's a reality, which is there together with the other wholesome mental factors, cetasikas. But it's there at any moment of wholesomeness because it sees the disadvantage of: whatever is there is so pleasant, but actually it harms the citta, it taints the citta with what is not clean. That's why we wash away our dirtiness or what is there that should be cleaned up: Ignorance is there more and more, more pleasant, more enjoyment and so on... or, it's only that which arises and it's gone.
That's why there has to be right understanding of the truth, the root of all, not ignorance anymore, taking that what I or someone or something, object of clinging. That's why without the Teachings of the truth from the Enlightenment One, how can there be the understanding of moments of kusala and moment of akusala? To condition the shame to have akusala, little by little. At moment of kusala, who knows that it's not I, but there are several wholesome realities arising together, performing the moment not to be akusala.
That's why learn to understand the truth of each reality as it is, that they are all conditioned. Without understanding more and more, there can never be the moment of letting go of the pleasure or what is there so pleasant, to be attached to. It's so deep that even the sotapanna cannot let it go, eradicate it yet, until the pañña is higher and higher and higher. So even the shame, hiri and ottappa, has to be stage by stage.
So now a moment of hearing, understanding, it's so very precious... to begin, even just to begin, to understand the truth, that can be learned and develop on and on, more and more... less and less ignorance, and that is shame: not to have ignorance anymore, shame to have any kind of akusala. That's why it has to arise with each wholesome citta. Not knowing what is there. It seems like "I do not drink, I do not kill, I do not lie", but what is there? It's not anyone but it's shame of doing so, depending on how much understanding until it's shame of ignorance and akusala after seeing, hearing, smelling and so on, as usual when pañña develops more.
So learn to understand what is wholesome cetasika or unwholesome cetasika, different ones, hiri and ottappa and so on are wholesome and moha, ahirika and anottappa are unwholesome, no one at all, and all depends on upanissaya-paccaya, it's there more and more and more until it's habitual. The more we learn about the truth, the more letting go, gradually, of the clinging to the self and something, atta.
Is there shame now a little more? Not understanding what is there now. So, it's there to be known a little more, a little more until less and less ignorance and attachment, gradually, so very gradually, little by little, stage by stage, of right understanding and other wholesome cetasikas. So without hiri and ottappa, can there be wholesome citta?
[Q] Without hiri and ottappa, there cannot be wholesome citta.
[A. Sujin] And only two kinds of wholesome cetasikas, not enough at all. It needs more conditions to be a moment of wholesome, kusala. What else? Sobhana-sadharana-cetasikas, 19 cetasikas. Learn to understand the moment of kusala, as without the Teachings it's still my wholesome moment, deed. In truth they are all gone, no matter what level of reality, not anyone at all. Otherwise there cannot be letting go of the idea of "I" or "mine" or "me".
Isn't "how?" atta or expectation? Isn't it expectation or clinging, how? Why "how?"? Ignorance and attachment is there. Ahirika and anottappa is also there. Not having shame of the truth that nothing can be done by anyone at all. The way dhamma is, dhammata. At that moment no shame, right? Just wanting to know, "how?". No shame to understand a little more. Actually there can never be anyone who can do anything, to know "how?". Deeper and deeper in a day.
[Q] Ajahn, can you say a little more about ottappa?
[A. Sujin] Can that which is dangerous be not dangerous? Ottappa, seeing the danger of akusala. It's being added in each process of seeing, hearing, smelling... So dangerous! The more the attachment... how can it be letting go? So there are moments of ahirika anottappa in a day, unknown, all the time. That's why the Buddha taught the truth about the differences between hiri ottappa and ahirika anottappa, actually they're no one but they are two different realities.
[Q] In the discussion we were talking about how important to have the understanding of what is the right path and one of our friends also said that yes that is very important but sometimes it may happen that we go on meditation retreat but as long as we know that these are just for sleeping better, for example, then it's okay, nothing wrong with that.
[A. Sujin] It needs very truthful discussion for those who think about meditation, meditation center or going somewhere to meditate or even now meditate. What's right and what's wrong? What is meant by meditation? When there's no understanding, should anyone follow? Because it brings more and more ignorance and attachment because when it's not understanding, what is it? Ignorance and attachment for sure. So it's not just thinking about the words, meditating, but what is it? And what is its goal? Is it understanding the truth of what is there? Or wrong understanding that the truth right now cannot be realized? That's why one goes away. So, what is right and what is wrong? Even the word meditate or meditation, right understanding can understand the truth of what is there, but meditation, can it understand what is there as it is?
[Q] As soon as there is the idea of someone doing something that's not understanding the moment, wrong view of self.
[A. Sujin] That's why the Buddha taught about understanding the truth of what is there every moment, to be known. No other way at all. That's why the Buddha said that there is only one way: samma-ditthi, right understanding of the truth with other cetasikas together as the path. So what about samma-sankappa, meditation?
[Q] Nothing is meditation there in the noble eightfold path.
[A. Sujin] So, is it the Teachings of the Buddha? To be truthful to the truth. Otherwise it's akusala, which is not truthful to the truth, hiri-ottappa or ahirika-anottappa. Learning a little more about what is there conditioning just a moment of thinking of the word meditating or meditation. And when it's right, should we talk about it or should we keep silent?
[Q] I think it's good to talk about it, Ajahn.
[A. Sujin] And that's the meaning of good friend, the true friend, the real friend. Not harming the other at all, just helping them from danger. The great danger of ignorance and attachment and wrong understanding.
[Q] He might think that, okay I know that it's not the right path but maybe somehow there's something good.
[A. Sujin] So what's the purpose of listening to the truth? Because at that moment there's no listening to the truth. So, what does it mean meditation?
[Q] It's not understanding.
[A. Sujin] So, no shame for not understanding the truth of that moment, of now. That's why the Buddha taught about the truth, hiri and ottappa. Deeper and deeper. Conditioning more and more understanding, even so very little is so precious because without that very moment how can there be more? But when there's none, how can there be moments of great understanding of the truth? If it's not the path, why not developing the understanding from hearing considering, naturally by conditions, otherwise, if it's not by conditions, it's by ignorance. Even if it's conditioned, it's conditioned by ignorance and attachment to the result. So, what is the benefit of wrong understanding?
[Q] It's no benefit, it's a danger.
[A. Sujin] Understanding what is meant by danger and hiri and ottappa and ahirika and anottappa, daily life, no one. By conditions, the upanissaya-paccaya, a little more, a little more, a little more, until it becomes habit, quite strong when it's more and more. Not understanding the words of the Teachings of the Enlightened One, what is meant by right understanding, what is meant by dhamma, what is meant by anatta. So, is it time to have a good friend?
[Q] It takes time to get a good friend because usually the truth it's not easy.
[A. Sujin] It doesn't matter but the truth is the truth, what's wrong with it? When it's right shouldn't it be shared? Shouldn't it be known, at suitable times? For example, discussion of the truth. It's not talk show or it's not the magician play or trick or whatever, it's so true, it's so deep, if it hasn't begun yet when will it develop? Or when will it be there, while one has wrong understanding each day, from day to day on and on. That's why no expectation for anyone to get it or not to get it, but the truth is the truth and it should be shared because it's so very precious, more than any other kind of gift at all.
[Q] Just on that point Ajahn, sometimes the Buddha did not speak, it's not always easy, I don't believe, to to know when's the right time.
[A. Sujin] And what about Dhamma discussion, is it time?
[Q] Some people are just not willing to listen.
[A. Sujin] So, is it beneficial to talk to those people who have no interest in understanding anything at all? Or who just cling to their own ideas or their teacher's and so on. It's useless, but when it's time for Dhamma discussion, those who come to discuss... even we don't say we are ready to accept the truth, but why does one come to discuss on just the truth? And I think that a very powerful question is asking about what is it, for example, if one uses the term meditation, what is it, can we ask?
[Q] It's only an English word which means something like healing.
[A. Sujin] But it's not a discussion on the term or the word, but we discuss on the truth and the truth of reality, when we have dhamma, dhamma discussion, on dhammas only. Good friend, when there is dhamma discussion, to know what is true and what is false, what is the Teachings of the Buddha, can it be carefully considered, each word is true or not, about what is there now because there is now, so what is it? The Buddha taught everything about the truth, the reality to be known, to realize the truth, not just talking about it without the way to realize the truth. And the way is not attachment or ignorance at all: samma-ditthi, right understanding of the truth of what is there as it is. Anyone can consider it.
For example, if there's no understanding of what is there now, thinking about the past or the future to be known, impossible. The past is gone and the future hasn't come yet, but no understanding of what is there now, so how can there be any understanding of any moment? [True.] So, am I not good friend, talking about the truth? Because we can discuss on that subject, what is true, what is the truth of what is there now. Does anyone know? And what is known, is it true or false?
There must be a reality, the reality which experiences the object, otherwise what is there, how can it be known? It's taken for something just instantly, not thinking about: it wasn't there before its arising, and it's gone when it's gone, fallen away.
Audio file: 2024-05-12-VN_hiri_ottappa.mp3
#DhammahomeTv source video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Aiksii9gHQ