Citta and seven cetasikas arise together to experience visible object
(Excerpt from the Dhamma discussion with Ajahn Sujin in Vung Tau - VN - on 2024/03/06 am)
[A. Sujin] Shall we talk about this moment? Because what we've heard is there now, but it's not known, just heard about it. And the point of listening to the truth is not just hearing, considering, understanding, but it has to be moment of realizing the truth of what is there, just one reality at a time. This is very important, otherwise it's not careful considering at all about just one reality. We talk about now, any moment.
So it can be seeing or hearing or thinking. They are different. But what is there as the chief from birth? If there's no understanding enough, there can never be the understanding of seeing right now at all. Just the word about what is there at the moment of seeing, how many cetasikas are there, only words.
But now, the most precious moment in life, any life, depending on conditions, is the moment of not just thinking about seeing now, but understanding the nature of seeing. Previous life, there was also seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting. And next life, will be just the same as now. There will be seeing. If there isn't more understanding of seeing, how can the truth of what is heard be realized?
That's why there is seeing right now, begin again and again, until it's there known, as it is. Not just hearing about it and forgetting about it all the time, even just right now. That's not the way to realize the word, the reality, which is the chief of experiencing, the chief of experiencing the object clearer than the other realities which arise together, experience the object with attachment or ignorance, different realities.
That's why just one reality at a time to understand, no matter what reality appearing, it's just that reality, not me or anyone or anything at all. And this is the ultimate truth. Otherwise, there is always moment of forgetting, just want to understand this or that.
But what about understanding seeing right now? Has it begun to attend to the characteristic of that which now just sees? It cannot think, it cannot like, it's just that which sees, that we have talked about it all the time, that which sees, that which sees, it sees, but how much understanding of it or what sees now?
That's why begin again to consider whether there is enough understanding of that which experiences an object from birth to death, on and on, unknown, or begin to understand the truth, not just hearing about the story of the way it is.
So now, isn't it so subtle? No shape, no form, no taste. Just arises and experiences what is there now. Just arises and experiences what is there now. Seeing is that which just arises and experiences only that which appears. And the moment of hearing is not that moment at all, far apart. And that which arises to hear is that which is now hearing.
What we have learned is not so far from this moment at all, but it's so subtle, and it's far from understanding the truth, because never thought about it when no one just talks about it, like: seeing now sees.
So the reality which experiences the object is not that which is experienced, beginning to consider a little more careful now. That which sees is not that which is seen. And in a day, is there any time thinking about the seeing that is not that which is seen now? Even right now? In order to get closer and closer to understand the reality which has no shape, no color, no smell at all, no things around at all, only that which arises and experience, and then gone instantly.
That's why the Buddha realized the truth and taught about the truth from the very beginning. There is a reality, no one at all, only that reality which is conditioned to arise and experiences the object only, that's all. So it's there from birth.
That's why we learn about the moment of birth, there must be citta, but not more understanding about conditions for its arising, to condition it to be a different being, not at moment of birth. So now, it's there from birth, but very briefly, the arising and falling away of each moment of citta is so very, very short. Even the moment of birth is just one very short moment, and then gone, never to arise again in that life... from only one moment of birth.
But it conditions other moments of experiencing the object on and on and on, just in a moment, only a moment, and then gone. Isn't this life, isn't it true? Because now it's not moment of birth, and not the moment following birth, after the birth moment has gone. That's why we learn about the impermanence of whatever is there, unknown, because of the succession of that which arises so very rapidly arises and falls away, and then the other reality arises and falls away. Who knows now? That's why we learn to understand the reality which arises now, little by little, that is gone.
That's why what is meant by anatta? No-one and no-thing at all, only realities conditioned to arise, to be there, and then gone in split second. And this is life. Shouldn't it be realized, or just talked about? No more understanding. So it's I-who-understands what is heard. But what is the I again?
The Buddha taught about the truth of reality for 45 years, about whatever is there now, from not understanding anything, and there is the understanding, hearing about this truth, and that is not enough, because what he taught can be realized as he has realized, otherwise it's useless. That's why now it's time again to begin again to understand this very moment of seeing.
But without understanding a little more and a little more, there is no condition to consider it carefully, that's when we use the word manasikara, but no need to talk about the name yet. Just talking about that which is a chief of experiencing right now, in order to understand the other realities which arise and experience the object, but not as seeing, the chief of experiencing the visible object as it is, as it is, not as it's taken for something.
Each word has to be considered very carefully to get closer and closer to the moment of what is now arising and falling away. Nothing lasts at all. That's the word of the Buddha, the Enlightened One. What is conditioned to arise falls away instantly. That's why if there is no understanding of seeing right now, how can there be the understanding of the moment before seeing and the moment after seeing? Right?
What is there is the reality which arises to experience the object clearly, the chief of experiencing. That's why when we talk about the other reality which experiences the object, but it is attached to the object when the object is there, because of not understanding, ignorance of the truth. It's not that which is seen as something,
because in life what is seen appears as the nimitta by shape and form, conditioning the idea of something all the time.
That's why there has to be the understanding of each moment of citta, moment of birth, gone, never to arise again in this life. Because the reality which arises and experiences the object at the moment of birth just performs the function of birth. Each reality which experiences the object has its own characteristic, never changes at all.
Any moment that which is conditioned to see arises to see. Without hearing this again and again and again, can there be moment of conditioned thinking about it, in a day, from day to day? Just learning about the word about it, what for? To be condition not to forget what was heard, that it can be moment of attending to the characteristic of that which experiences right now, the seeing moment, hearing moment, thinking moment.
That's why we talk about the reality which is there and learn to understand what is the truth of it, like attending, attention, what is there? It attends to that which appears, it means that it also experiences that object, but not as the chief, as seeing, but it experiences the same object with attention or attachment or whatever is there, little by little, to understand what the Buddha taught about anatta, what is there is real, it has its own characteristic, different realities.
Citta is that which is the chief and the other moment of the reality which experiences that is not citta at all. That's why they are cetasikas. They experience the same object, arise together, fall away together, but it has its own characteristic which can be learned little by little as we talk about attention or manasikara. If we don't use the word manasikara, anyone can understand the moment of attending or attention, paying attention to what is there, but as I, not as a reality. But, is there attention now? Who knows? Because, is there citta right now? And other cetasikas arising. That's why at moment of learning to understand, little by little, that which sees, it can lead to understand the other which arises together with seeing, but does not see because it's attention. Little by little.
Seven cetasikas... it can be learned a little more that they're right now, but they're not citta, from birth. And who knows, whatever arises falls away instantly. That's why it can be the moment of considering the truth of citta, the moment of birth consciousness falls away instantly and even that, the other moment, the next moment which experiences the same object as birth also arises and falls away. That's why even right now, how many moments arising and falling away? Can anyone count? Impossible, but learn to understand what appears little by little from what is heard one word of a reality at a time.
So now, citta is the reality, it's now experiencing the object clearly, different colors. If citta does not experience it, how can it be known as it's different from moment to moment? So, what moment there's no citta? Is there any moment without citta? What about the death moment? It's a citta which performs its function, that the end of being this person is there, never being this person again in samsara.
So now it's just the moment of whatever, from birth, conditioning what is there in life, not died yet. That's all. That's why learn to understand that any moment when there is condition, there can be moment of attending to the characteristic which now sees. We don't give the name yet, but there is attention. Is that right, now, any moment? Who would know if the Buddha hadn't taught about different realities in a moment? To understand a little bit better and better that it cannot be anyone at all, because it has arisen by conditions and then gone. No one can have such moment that one wishes to have, understanding or whatever... pleasant feeling to arise, all by conditions. What was eaten at breakfast, each moment of tasting... by conditions, whether the taste is hot or sweet, by conditions. It depends on other realities, conditioned too, to understand more about a moment of truth, of different experiences.
Citta is there with at least seven cetasikas. That's why learn to understand what you've just asked about, manasikara or attention, that it's not the chief at all. It's not the citta. Citta just arises and experiences the object, only. But at that moment, who knows what the Buddha realized? There must be phassa cetasika, that which contacts what is seen, to be seen. So right now, what is there is by contact, phassa, just phassing whatever is appearing now, right?
But it's not citta. That's why when there is the clearer understanding of citta, there can be understanding of the realities which experience the object, but not as citta, not as clearly as the chief, which just arises to see. And phassa just arises to contact, whatever citta experiences depends on contact, phassa cetasika, one reality, one cetasika, anytime, any moment. But can it be known or can it be realized? Depending on conditions. As the Buddha has realized it, by conditions. So |what is now realized has to be by conditions, each appearing differently|, right?
Is there thinking now? And the other just sees, all by phassa cetasika. That's why another word for phassa is the ahara, the food for what is there to arise. Understand the no-self, no-one, the anattaness of everything, gradually, not to have wrong idea about it, to condition right understanding of the truth, stage by stage, step by step. And right understanding, understands truly how much understanding of what is there now. For example, seeing and thinking and hearing. And phassa, is there anyone thinking about phassa? Not at all, because just thinking about that which appears, which is the object of that which experiences it. That's all in life.
That's why listening to the truth and then learn to understand who's the Buddha, who's the Enlightened One. Otherwise, without understanding of the truth, it's just the idea, talking about wholesomeness, goodness, unwholesomeness and so on, how to live happy life and so on, but not understanding the truth at all. That's why not just believe, but consider what is true. No matter from whom, anyone as a teacher of religion, different religions, but what about the truth of that which is there now? If there's no understanding, useless.
But when there is the understanding, little by little, it is like the moment of enrooting the understanding of the truth, little by little, to understand what is there now or any moment in life.
So, phassa cetasika is not manasikara cetasika. It's not citta. It's a reality arising with each moment of citta and now letting go a little more. No one can have anything arising at will. All depends on phassa cetasika. Is that right? But phassa is not known, as now citta is not known. It's there all the time, but not direct understanding of the truth of only that which is the chief, or of only that which is not the chief, but it's phassa.
That's why we learn about the truth to understand how much understanding has been accumulated. Because we can talk about the word, but it's there now. To understand that it's also there now, like phassa cetasika. And not only one cetasika, but there must be at least seven cetasikas arising together with citta. At any moment there must be at least seven cetasikas. So, consider what does at least mean, it means that besides the ten cittas: seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching pleasant objects and unpleasant objects, at other moments there must be more than seven cetasikas. That's why, if there's no understanding of the seven cetasikas, how can there be the understanding of the others? There can be, at moment of hearing about it, but it's not the moment of realizing it, when it's not the object of understanding.
So, now there's seeing, what can be known, phassa or seeing? To be truthful to the truth, at that moment can there be understanding of phassa, the reality which contacts the object for the citta? And if the visible object or sound is not contacted by phassa through one of the five doorways, including the other (i.e. mind door) six all together, how can there be the moment of understanding it, even by thinking?
At moment of thinking, isn't phassa cetasika there? Can we select the object to be object of thinking? Impossible. All depends on phassa. And can phassa just arise without conditions? Impossible. Whatever arises is conditioned. So what conditions phassa to be the object of thinking? Sañña, the reality which marks and remembers, it experiences the same object together with citta, but it's not the chief of experiencing. So it's not the citta.
Citta cannot mark or remember anything because its function is just to arise to experience the object clearly, to understand the difference of each object. So, sañña is there, marks and remembers. And in Pali, it is sañña cetasika. Is it there now? See, this is understanding dhamma, not just the word, because the word is just about what is there to be known as it is.
So now, is there any moment without sañña? At moment of thinking, if there's no sañña, what would thinking experience as object? How could it? But by sañña, we think about the breakfast this morning. Sañña is there at each moment of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. And we are talking about the truth of this very moment and any moment from now on to be object of understanding. That's why when there is sañña, the moment of marking, remembering, no understanding, it's "I". So what is there is taken for I and different things by sañña, too.
That's why learn to understand each reality, to understand dhamma, not just to hear about dhamma and understanding that everything is dhamma. When one is asked, what is it? It's dhamma. Is that enough? But what kind of dhamma? Is it memory? Or now, feeling is a reality which arises with each citta. As soon as the citta experiences the object, there is a conditioned reality which feels towards that object only. Each moment, so many, many different moments of realities. But there can be thinking about their nature as the feeling, for example. Any kind of reality to be just one kind of a reality. Because even feeling is different by conditions.
Pain, painful at moment when unpleasant object is there, by conditions. Pleasant feeling... is it pleasant? This, even this... what about the feeling? But the reality is much more subtle than that. Just listen to the word which is heard and consider carefully to understand its truth, just one reality at a time, but there are so many degrees for each different one. That's why never-enough at all.
Just learn to understand that what we are hearing is about the truth of this moment. To begin to realize that what can be known is only that very moment which is there. So now, at moment of seeing, at moment of hearing, what sees and what hears? It's only the reality which arises to be the chief in experiencing sound, to be heard as different sounds. See, all by moments of experiencing, by being the object of citta While there are other realities which are also there, which can be known little by little. But if there's not enough understanding of the citta, how can there be the understanding of the reality which experiences the object but differently than citta?
See, so we learn that what we heard, it's just about to realize the truth of what is there as not I or anything or anyone at all. Otherwise, it's useless. Just remembering the word and talking about it. But learning about it to know that it's there right now, to be considered more and more carefully, to be considered... so it's not citta which considers. Begin to understand each reality as it is. That's why we talk about one cetasika at a time.
Phassa cetasika, feeling, vedana cetasika, and sañña. What is it? Not the word. In Thai we have different meanings for the word sañña. But sañña cetasika is a reality which now marks and remembers what is there experienced.
Is there any moment without sañña? That's why seven cetasikas must be there at any moment. So now how many cetasikas? Phassa, vedana, sañña, and...? You remember the names, what about it? It's a cetasika arising with the citta. Is that enough?
That's why even cetana is there, the Buddha taught about the truth of it, to be considered, the reality for which we use so many words for it. The will to do, to raise the hand up, to drink, whatever is there for which we use the word that can be understood as intention. But it depends on the conditions for its arising to be the result (vipaka) or the cause or that which is neither wholesome nor unwholesome (kusala/akusala, i.e. kiriya). More to learn about the truth because it cannot be taught by anyone else at all. It has to be heard and considered whether it's true now, little by little. So it takes quite a long time to establish firm confidence in the truth of no one. Because now, how many times we've heard about this? It's still I and someone all the time. Actually, how long will it take to let go of the idea of something there, to be nothing there, only what is experienced through different doorways.
So now, the cetana, many words for it, to understand it a little more, a little more, as different accumulation for that particular word, to understand that as cetana. And not just cetana at moment of seeing, there are other moments of cetana too, to be learned, to understand the other moments, different from the moment of seeing.
So, life is just one moment experiencing an object of this world. Why is this world? Because it's that which impinges on a sense-door. How many are there now? Not just the name, but the understanding of the truth. And this is the understanding of dhamma. Not the word, but the truth. Vitakka? Not yet! Okay, phassa, vedana, sañña, cetana..., good memory... Seven. What is known or understood a little more.
To be condition to understand it when it's there, right now, to understand it when it's there. Is there enough understanding to condition moment to understand a little more of seeing? Who knows? Just right understanding. Only right understanding is so very truthful to the truth. How much or how little. Or just the word and forget, all the time. What's the next one?
Ekaggata... enough of ekaggata? To go on.... phassa, vedana, sañña, cetana. Then? Anyone, not in order, but in order to remember them. But in order to learn them together, what is next? To talk about them a little more.
Phassa, no doubt it's there. Vedana, no doubt. Sañña, and cetana. And what is there? Seven of them must be there. Yes, yes, yes. So which one will you talk about now? After cetana... phassa, vedana, sañña, cetana...
Ekaggatta. It's not Thai, it's not Vietnamese. The word of the Buddha is in Pali language. But the truth is the truth. Understanding depends on one's own understanding in one's own language. So eka is one, right? Ekaggata, the moment when it's there, it's just one-pointing to the object, not two or three at all. Only one, at that object, focusing on that object, naturally. Not as we say, focus on this at all. But it's the reality which is focusing in a moment, in a moment.
That's why there are so many degrees of just one reality. So we've heard the word about samadhi and so on.
But it's that which is one-pointed to the object, or which focus on the object. Different from phassa, different from vedana, different from sañña, different from cetana. That's why one moment of citta cannot experiences two objects, because of this cetasika just focusing on that particular object which is experienced. So now, when it arises more and more on one object only, more and more, the characteristic of that is what we call samadhi, or concentration. So, is it now ekaggata cetasika, or samadhi?
That's why it's there even at moment of seeing, just being one-pointed to the object or focusing on it,
but only one moment cannot appear as samadhi. That's why when we talk about any word, anything, there has to be the understanding of the truth, what is there which is true at that moment? Can citta be one-pointed or focus on the object? No, that's why learn to have more confidence, to understand that which appears only one at a time, as it is. But before that, it takes quite a long time, by conditions, to have foundation enough, to understand it a little more, a little more. So is there samadhi right now? Ekaggata is there, so very short, a moment of seeing. It sees only. That's all.
This is learning about what is there which is dhamma. Not anywhere else, but it's just right now. So, shall we go on to other factors? Jivitindriya.... phassa, vedana, sañña, cetana, ekaggata... Jivitindriya, what is it? Citta is the reality which arises to experience the object. It is different from that which cannot experience the object, because of jivitindriya... the life... what is that? Faculty, to condition that to be living reality. Without that, there is hardness, softness, but it's different from people, because there are two kinds of jivitindriya, citta and rupa.
So the jivitindriya, which is nama, and the jivitindriya, which is rupa, the faculty of being or life, this is different from that, because it's conditioned by kamma. At the moment of whatever arises by kamma, there must be jivitindriya, life faculty. To understand the difference between what appears as the doll or the dog. That dog looks very much like a doll, very much, but it's not a doll, because of jivitindriya. This one, not a doll, but a dog, because of jivitindriya... rupa conditioned by kamma, and the nama jivitindriya, which is life at moment of seeing, hearing, experiencing, whatever is there.
Almost all seven. Is there any question? Manasikara, a question was about it... attention is there, right now. At moment of citta experiencing the object, there must be the reality which attends to that object. Any moment. So now, there is sound... manasikara attends to that particular sound, to be understood, the meaning of it, at moment of attending to. That's why each moment there must be a cetasika, which arises to attend to the object, otherwise there wouldn't be any difference between anything at all.
That's why no matter in what life, the experiencers arise together, by conditions, and they condition each other too. Citta is there, without phassa, it cannot experience any object. But by phassa, contacting whatever citta experiences, only that object.
And at moment of experiencing any object, there is feeling arising together, because of experiencing that, it conditions feeling towards that object, pleasant or unpleasant feeling, right now, it can be known because there are many kinds of feelings. So, how many kinds of feeling in a day? Not known that they are different kinds of feeling, but it feels at moment of experiencing the object. So now, what kind of feeling are arising with seeing? We can say neutral feeling. Can it be another kind of feeling? [No.] By conditions.
That's why whatever is there, understanding, or ignorance, or liking, or hatred and so on, it's conditioned. No-one. It depends on accumulation from life to life, to condition even what is there. And there can be a little more understanding, to understand when one comes across a term, pakatupanissaya-paccaya, but no need to begin with that, but learning to understand the nature of it, the truth of it, and then the word about it, that is that particular paccaya. Is there just one paccaya to condition what is there from moment to moment? Many, many paccayas. But we learn from the beginning that what is there has to be conditioned by paccayas.