The moment with vitakka does not see does not hear

 

Excerpt from the Dhamma discussion with Ajahn Sujin on Zoom on May 11th 2024 am

[Sarah] Ajahn, there was a question about lobha arising, and Zao's question was, is there vitakka at that moment, or that may have been your question to someone in the discussion. Perhaps you would like to add more for him.

[A. Sujin] Yes, just to understand how subtle each moment is. There is seeing right now, who knows that there are only seven cetasikas, arising by kamma, to condition the moment of seeing with the other cetasikas, by kamma. So, the moment, the result of kamma, it's time to see... it arises to see, and each cetasika, seven cetasikas arise together, that's all. It's so very weak, very fast, just only one moment of seeing. Who knows? It's not that which arises before seeing, or that which follows seeing. But each moment is different by conditions.

That's why we learn to let go of the clinging to seeing. It has to arise to see by the kamma, ready to produce it to arise right then, just to see, and then gone. That's why we learn to understand that life is just a moment of result of the past deeds and then new accumulation of what has been accumulated to be attachment or aversion and so on. They have to arise by conditions, that's all, and then gone instantly.

That's why we learn a little more about what is there. For example, before hearing about the truth of the Teachings, who knows about cetasikas? No one at all. Even citta which sees or experiences objects through the six door-ways is not known at all as it is: just a moment, arising and falling away by conditions. That's why we learn to understand, to let go, the clinging to that which is not permanent as so permanent, that in truth just one moment at a time by different conditions.

For example, before seeing there's no seeing, but the citta before, the cakkhu-dvara-avajjana, just attends to that which impinges on the eye-base, through that door-way. It cannot see, just adverts to the object which is not the object of bhavanga, only that, when that impinges on the eye-base it's the first moment which does not experience the object of bhavanga, by that which is impinging on the eye-base. So, it just knows what is there, what door-way, and then it's gone.

It conditions the next moment which sees that which the pañca-dvara-avajjana / cakkhu-dvara-avajjana just advert to it, and then after it's been adverted, it's known by seeing, just only a moment.

Kamma conditions citta and seven cetasikas to arise together and experience that. Each cetasika and citta have to experience because its function is that, phassa has to be a reality which performs the function of just contacting, see, and after that no need to have vitakka at all because all seven cetasikas arise together and are gone. That's all.

But after that, how can that be experienced? Because the object which has impinged on the eye-base hasn't fallen away yet, so, it's arammana-paccaya for the citta to arise to experience it, as long as it hasn't fallen away. But even the moment which experiences the object, which is not seeing, since it cannot see, but it has to experience the same object, so it needs... or there is condition for vitakka to experience that, even it does not see. So, without the reality which touches the object, how can it be known? That's why the citta after seeing is conditioned by vitakka to experience the object but it does not see at all.

That's why each moment is conditioned, so we learn a little more.. from then on, vitakka experiences the same object as seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, but vitakka does not see at that moment because seeing is conditioned by kamma. So we learn just a little more to understand what is there. Even vitakka, when it arises with other cetasikas, it touches the object for pañña, for manasikara, for feeling, for whatever cetasikas are there, performing their function. They do not know each other at all, but there are conditions for a moment to arise to be that moment and the next one and the next one all by different conditions.

So, when it's not moment of actual seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, it needs vitakka to touch the object, to experience that. And the other cittas that follow have that vitakka as well because it's not moment of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. That's why only ten cittas experience the object, by kamma conditioning it to arise. Vitakka does not arise at that moment because kamma conditioned only seven cetasikas to condition just a moment of seeing, very short. So now, it doesn't seem that seeing is so short. It seems like it's there for a long time. All those moments of seeing, no matter when, vitakka does not arise with those moments at all.

So vitakka is the foot of the world because without it seeing sees and is gone... It (visible object) couldn't be experienced anymore, but since the object is there and it conditions the other moment next to seeing to touch it for every moment after to experience whatever object is there. Beyond what anyone can experience because even seeing right now is not directly experienced yet. So all dhammas can appear depending on conditions, what is the object.

So learn to understand that there is a cetasika which has to arise after the ten moments of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching (dvi-pañca-viññana). Otherwise, the object cannot be experienced. We learn to understand cetasika one by one. Seven cetasikas and then one more, vitakka, arising with every citta after those ten. Because the moment with vitakka does not see, does not hear.

For example, the actual moment of seeing doesn't need vitakka because kamma conditions citta and seven cetasikas to experience that object just in a moment. And imagine just one moment of seeing... how rapid it is the succession of nama dhammas by anantara-paccaya and samanantara-paccaya.

[Giao] Vitakka is translated into English as thinking.

[A. Sujin] No matter it's thinking, liking, attaching, disliking, when they are not the ten cittas, the two of seeing (the result of kusala and of akusala kamma), hearing, so on, there must be the reality which touches the object. Phassa is just contacting, that's not enough. It's enough just for those ten cittas. But the citta after that can experience what it experiences by way of it touching the object, which is not seen but it can become the object of other cittas, now. What about if there was just only the moment of seeing... could there be any idea about that which is seen?

Could there be moments of being attached to it? And so on. Because seeing just sees that which is seen, visible object, and only one moment, no idea about it at all, but now what is there? So right then, after seeing has fallen away, vitakka touches the object, with other cittas, to experience it right now.

It is the way to let go of the idea of self gradually, little, very little by little. Just one moment of understanding, letting go of ignorance. So, how many moments develop? To begin to understand the truth of the moment of seeing, it does not see people and things at all. It just sees that which impinges on the eye-base and then is gone, no more seeing after that because the next moment needs vitakka to touch the object to experience it without seeing it.

So, at moment of thinking we can think about color, we can think about people and things, but it's not the actual moment of seeing or experiencing that object through the eye-doors or ear-doors. So, we think about the mind door process at moment of thinking. It's not the actual seeing or hearing, but sañña, remembers and marks and thinking thinks about it.

There must be phassa as well but it's not enough. There must be that which just touches it at moment when is there, too, for the object to be thought at that very moment of thinking. If we do not learn to understand just one reality at a time, they are together as something all the time.

So, how can there be the moment of experiencing the arising and falling away of a reality? Seeing right now, it sees.

It sees and then is gone. Who knows? But learn to understand the truth of each reality. Seeing is citta, which arises by kamma, conditioning it to arise to see, and then gone. It's not there all day, but it seems like is there all day. But there are other moments which are not seeing at all, one moment at a time, so quickly. So it seems like what is there in a moment.

Are we talking about the truth, of what is there now or anytime? As no-one and no-thing at all. In truth, what is there... gone, never to return, suññata, anatta. Can anyone make vitakka to arise? So vitakka arises with each moment of citta, at moment of hearing, at moment of considering... when we talk about hearing, it's not the moment of hearing (sound). We're talking about moments of hearing and thinking and have some idea about the objects so very quickly.

That's why even right now seeing appears as nimitta, but not the citta before it or the citta after it.

Audio file:
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#DhammahomeTv source video:
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