Vatthu, the place or that at which citta and cetasikas arise

(Excerpt from the Dhamma discussion with Ajahn Sujin on Zoom on Sat Jul 6th 2024.) Audio file: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AujD6qLjtvuOjwiT6mXZ8benjHme

00:00 - Vatthu, the place or that at which citta and cetasikas arise
[Alan] If you ask a person the question, where are you now? That person's reply indicates the level of understanding they have. Could you explain a bit more about that?

[A. Sujin] It depends on whether we are thinking about the story or just about the dhamma. Where are you? No-where, right?

[Alan] It's thinking. It's a moment of thinking, is that what you mean?

[A. Sujin] Can we say where is seeing? [No.] Can we say at the eye base? Because it's where it arises.

[Alan] Yes, it arises at the eye base.

[A. Sujin] That's why there is the word vatthu, in Pali, the place or that at which citta and cetasikas arise, are there. Not in the air or at the arm, but it's at that very truth or a reality which is there for seeing to arise at, only seeing. Can we think about what is seeing and where is it? To really understand that it's nowhere at all? Because what is there arises and falls away, even it arises at that very point of rupa, very particular, but it's gone and so on. That's why we learn about to understand what is there. Where is citta? It's not in the air, on the chair or anything, but it is at moment when it's there arising, only at that particular object, vatthu.

02:13 - Kathavatthu, the question to understand more clearly what we mean
That's why all depends on understanding, no matter what we talk about. For example, in Kathavatthu of Abhidhamma, see, they just ask this question and that question, on and on and on, and sometimes it's right at first, and then not right at the end, or something like that, depending on the meaning of what they are talking about. Only the two of them know. No one knows until we consider about the question and the answer, because it's on this aspect or that aspect, many, many aspects.

Like we've just been talking about, where is the seeing? It can be the question to understand clearer what we mean. There must be the place, the point, that it arises there, but it's just conditioned, but when it's known, nowhere at all. Otherwise, it cannot be known, if there is thinking about where it is.

That's why when we talk about dhamma, we can talk about any aspect, just to be reminded not to go away far from what we are now, talking about the truth of dhamma. Otherwise, at the other times, there's nothing concerning the understanding of the truth at all, when we don't mention it, talk about it, think about it. That's why it's time for parami, to be foundation to understand the truth, little by little, firmer and firmer.

[Alan] When we have the idea that we are in a place...

[A. Sujin] That's why we can talk about it, so the question is where am I? I, not a reality. So, I am in the room, in the street, in the car or somewhere. But when we talk about reality, we know that now we are not talking about the car and the room or anything at all. We just talk about a reality, only one reality at a time arising only, which appears and then's gone.

[Alan] The question can have two meanings, where is seeing, but also where I am. Those are different questions.

[A. Suin] What is the benefit of thinking about where it is? For example, we think about the world. Where is the world? When we talk about anything like the world, where is it? So where is seeing? You might think about many things, like the eye base and what and what and what, maybe of science or whatever. But in order to know that it's just so close right now, in order to get closer and closer to the truth, it's not by thinking, but by understanding the nature of that which arises and sees. It's there, not that which is seen. Usually, at this moment, we just think about what is seen, so wide, the sky and everything, but where is it, that which is seen? Not just to know where, it's not far away, it's so close, right now.

It's not just trying to see it so close, that it's there, but when it's there, to be known, it's not the moment of thinking away from this and that, as the world being filled with the sky and moon and stars and so on, but what is the world? It's the moment of experiencing an object. And if one's thinking is still far away, can there be a moment of understanding that which arises and sees and is gone?

06:35 - Understanding the truth of what is taken for the world
That's why it's not trying to do or trying to find out, but understanding what is meant by where-is-it? The same question as where-is-the-world? Where is thinking? Where is hearing? Where is liking? Where is remembering and so on? It's so close, but it does not mean that you should... And when it appears, nowhere at all, nobody, because what appears has to be a moment when it's there to be known, just very, very rapidly, very quickly.

For example, seeing right now. Where is seeing? It's not at that which is seen at all, but it's just... learning to understand the truth, to let go, not trying so hard to experience it, or trying to think very hard about how it's conditioned and so on, but the nature of it is there as no-one. So the point is to understand the truth of that. No-one at all. There are different realities appearing, but it's not close enough to the reality which is there so very quickly because it's gone. That's why just learn to let go of taking whatever as something permanent, to understand that in truth what is taken for the world is that which appears. If nothing appears at all, how can there be any-world or any-one or any-thing?

Is it true, that the world is not far away and seeing is not far away at all? But when it appears, it's not just what we take for the eye base because at the moment when it's there, no eye base, because it's not the eye base which is known as just a reality, but the seeing. Learn to understand the nature of that which has no leg or arm or anything or any rupa at all. It's there at any moment, no matter at moment of sleeping, thinking, liking.

Whatever is there is there, different from other realities. This is the way to let go very, very slowly, very, very little, of ignorance and wrong understanding. Just learn about the truth and at that moment, pañña begins to let go. Before it can let go of the whole idea of something or I it takes quite a long time because of the accumulation of wrong understanding, taking what is there as something, has been accumulated for quite a long, long time.

That's why it takes quite a long time to understand what is there. Naturally, by conditions, by understanding, gradually, little by little. We can say, in words, a dhamma, but it's there, a reality. That's all. Seeing is real. It's a reality different from hearing. Hearing is real. It's not seeing, but it is that which arises and experiences sound. It's not permanent. It's conditioned to arise and then fall away, instantly as any other reality. That's all.

So the truth of that which arises and falls away so very rapidly is not known yet until right understanding begins to understand, little by little, of the truth of what it is, different from the others. The seeing, now sees, different from that which is seen, little by little. That's why we listen again and listen again, in order just to have a little more understanding, very, very slightly at a time, very profound. It works its way, no one at all. Understanding is understanding, but it's so very little in the beginning. But the truth is there, any time to be known, that's why in order to understand that, it has to be that which has been conditioned to appear only, not at the moment when one tries to understand, tries to do, or anything else.

11:35 - Before it can be pariyatti, it has to understand the truth
That's why before it can be pariyatti, it has to understand the truth, dhamma, seeing is real, so what is real is dhamma, it's not permanent. Now is the moment of the development of understanding the truth, so very gradually, the only way, the eightfold path, the four ariya-sacca, that's why it's so very subtle. Again and again, on and on and on, just about seeing, to condition moment of understanding it, unexpected moment, by conditions only. It can be right now, or not now, at night, or tomorrow, who knows, or next life, who knows, how much understanding develops in just a moment, while there are the accumulation of ignorance, and attachment, and all kinds of akusala, eons and eons ago. That's why this life is a parami, pañña develops, to condition other kusala to develop, instead of having time for akusala, more and more.

Isn't this the path, the only way to understand what is there? With no thinking, no talking, discussing on the truth of it at all, it's time for akusala, never being moment of understanding what is there right now. That's why keep on hearing, considering, reading, considering, thinking, considering, little by little.

That's why we have discussion anytime, to understand the truth, as much as conditions are there, allow, or condition the moment of understanding. Even again, it has to be again, it has to be again, to have firm confidence of the truth. Otherwise, how can there be moment of firm confidence of the truth, of seeing right now.

Isn't that the way, the only way, to understand seeing right now? And not just seeing, anything, by conditions, without expectation, which one would be at moment of realizing the truth, of any one reality, which hasn't arisen yet.

#DhammahomeTV source video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HG7g3QtuB78