Dhatu, ways to understand the truth according to one's accumulation

Excerpt of the Dhamma discussion (En-Hi) with Ajahn Sujin on Zoom on Sat Jan 11th 2025.
Mp3 audio file: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1esIWdyqjNoSbElFyxX3RgRiZc7k25pLq

Citta have their functions to perform - different moments, different dhatus

We can talk about anything in order to understand that no matter what, it's dhamma.
[I'd like to ask about the dhatus.]
So, what's the meaning of dhatu? What's its nature? What is the truth of dhatu? Is it real? [Yes, Ajahn].
So, whatever is real has its own characteristics, appearing to be known that it's real, is that right? [Yes.]
So, all dhammas are dhatus, is that right? [Yes, Ajahn.]
Not clinging to the word, just because the Buddha told about this or that group of realities, by way of dhatus or by way of such and such, but there has to be understanding of the nature of that, in order to understand why it's there as this group, as the group of dhatus, even all are dhatus. So, how many dhatus? How many kinds? The nature of dhatu, it doesn't matter the number at all.

So, what dhatu would you like to talk about? [Mano-dhatu, Ajahn.]
Okay, what is mano? [The mind door.]
Mano is citta, but cittas are different by way of - some citta experience objects through five doorways and some only through one doorway. So, can seeing be that which sees through the mind door?
When we talk about viññana-dhatu, the seeing is viññana-dhatu. Even it's citta, but it's the citta which experiences the object through the eye door only. Even it's citta, but it cannot experience the object through the mind door, it sees, so it is one of the viññana-dhatus.
That's why, how many dhatus under this category? When we learn about dhatu, the Buddha summed up what are there as dhatus, how many groups of them. Because citta has its function to perform, different moments, different dhatus.

It's so good if you are interested in understanding, but understand the nature of reality, not just the word, which group it is. But talking about dhatu, how many dhatus, by way of group? When we talk about citta, it's that which is the chief of experiencing the object, never change, but there are so many different cittas, different levels of beings.
Listen carefully to each word, not just to the whole at once. [Ok, Ajahn].
Ok, have you heard about cakkhu-viññana-dhatu? [Yes, Ajahn].
One, and? [Sota-viññana-dhatu.]
Are they the same? [No, they're different, different realities.]
That's why there is cakkhu-viññana-dhatu, sota-viññana-dhatu, and what else? [Ghana-viññana-dhatu...]
Ok, can pañca-dvara-avajjana see or hear? [It cannot see.]
Learn little by little, it cannot see. So, can pañca-dvara-avajjana be cakkhu-viññana-dhatu? [No.]
That's why, how many cakkhu-viññana-dhatu? [Only one.]
Kusala vipaka or akusala, but by way of dhatu is one, cakkhu-viññana-dhatu.

We understand the nature, the truth, the reality, not just the words. Because each word has its own meaning. [Yes, Ajahn].
That's why, pañca-dvara-avajjana, how many objects can it experience? Can pañca-dvara-avajjana experience any object? [Only five.]
Five doorways, so it's another group, mano-dhatu. Not cakkhu-viññana-dhatu, sota-viññana-dhatu, but it is mano-dhatu because it can experience all five doorways, sense objects, one by one, but it can experience, not by seeing, not by hearing, but it just knows that the object is there, at the doorway. So, it cannot be cakkhu-viññana-dhatu, sota-viññana-dhatu. It can be mano-dhatu because it can experience five objects. [Yes, Ajahn].
This is the way to gradually let go of the clinging to the words, to the moment of thinking, to moment of liking and so on. Not understanding any truth of each moment at all, they are different and very complex because it seems that they are all together now, seeing and hearing and thinking. But the enlightenment of the Buddha, enlightened to the truth, the nature that arises and falls away in split seconds. Even it is citta, which experiences the object by different moments, by different functions and so on. As dhatu, we have to learn how many are there, because they are different. In how many ways they are they different? By way of dhatus: cakkhu-viññana-dhatu... and so on.

A little more understanding of dhatus to let go of what is there in life

So, how many cittas can experience five objects through five doorways? Listen to just one reality at a time, otherwise they are all mixed up, no one can understand the way it is, so complex, but the Teachings of the Enlightened One, enlighten the truth of each reality, each moment, each object. That's why we learn to understand the virtues of the Buddha, otherwise, no one could understand anything at all in life as it is.
So, listen again, how many cittas experience five objects? Not only one object. They can experience five objects through five doorways, because cakkhu-viññana experiences only one object through one doorway, but how many cittas can experience five objects, not only one? What's the answer, please? [Mano-dvara-avajjana.]
Wrong. I asked about five, didn't I? Listen, mano-dvara-avajjana citta, what objects does it experience? Can mano-dvara-avajjana citta see? Is there any book about the dhatus, how many dhatus are there? Viññana dhatus, that which experiences the object. So, you heard from somewhere, and you just want to know, but without any basic understanding, little by little, firmly or firm enough.
So, it's just book knowledge, but when there is moment of understanding the reality, which is not easy to realize at all, because it doesn't have any shape, color, smell, or anything at all. Imagine, the reality which experiences one object at a time, but they are different, because some of them can experience five objects, and some can experience only one object. Even they're cittas, even they experience the object, but they are different, they cannot be the same. That's why the Buddha taught about different kinds of viññana dhatus, about citta only. That's why before there can be understanding enough to go deeper and deeper to the truth, to eradicate the akusala stage by stage it's not easy at all, so very deep and so subtle.

So, when we talk about viññana-dhatu, everyone knows we mean citta, right? [Yes.]
Okay, but the question I'm asking for anyone to think about, not just to remember the number, how many cittas experience one object only? Can it be a question, instead of the number? Just what kind of cittas, what cittas can experience only one object? Very simple, no numbers yet. We learn about different dhatus, different kinds of dhatu of viññana. If there's no one asking, we'd just talk about viññana-dhatu, cakkhu-viññana-dhatu experiences visible objects and so on, but when there's a question, just a little more considering. We're talking about how many cittas can experience only one object... a little more understanding that realities cannot be changed at all, either this way or the other way, it depends on understanding. If there's no understanding, just remembering, one can say how many: cakkhu-viññana, sota-viññana..., but what about the understanding what the question is, it means that there are other cittas which experience more objects. A little more understanding to let go of what is there in life, to be reminded. Listen, just to test your understanding: how many dhatus by way of viññana-dhatu?

That's the way to understand dhammas, no matter they are divided into different groups or in different manners, different ways. What differences are there? To be the moment of letting go of ignorance, of attachment, because ignorance is so very enormous, just one word, all dhammas are dhatus, not enough. Even the word dhatu can be classified by different dhatus, by way of the viññana-dhatus. When the question is - how many viññana-dhatus can experience only one object? It means that you have heard about the processes. Each one performs different function. [Ten cittas, viññanas.]
Why 10? The answer has to be according to the question, how many viññana-dhatus experience one object, so, the answer would be, cakkhu-viññana-dhatu experiences only one object, sota-viññana-dhatu experiences one object, ghana-viññana-dhatu experiences one... This is just reviewing what has been learned or heard before, so as not to forget it, but by different ways, there can be the clear understanding or exact understanding of each one, more precise, little by little. And this is the very subtle way to let go of ignorance, because just learning by way of number and so on, it cannot be condition for the moment of attending to what we have learned about, each different one, viññana...

Pariyatti, there isn't even thinking about it if we don't talk about it.

Dhamma is so very subtle, there has to be very clear understanding, that is pariyatti, no matter by what way or what topic, it needs to be answered, so that the understanding of that subject is clearer and won't be forgotten.

[I am still wondering whether pariyatti has to be about understanding seeing now.]

If we don't talk about it, what could condition the understanding of seeing? Not enough, or is it enough now to be condition for the second round? [When it is firm enough.]
So how can it be firm enough? When it, when it, when it, but how? So, even the words - how many citta experience one object? So very subtly, very slightly, that it's the way to understand little by little about seeing right now, not just - oh, seeing is the reality which experiences the object, no matter when, just seeing is that which sees, and just only that. But there can be a little more careful considering, because without careful and wise considering what is there now cannot be realized, cannot be known, cannot be thought about at all. Even thinking about it, not at all in a day, if we don't talk about it. So, just talking about seeing sees, anytime, but what about - how many cittas which experience one object? It's like the food for considering the truth, no food at all, nothing to consider, even it's there. But different ways, the truth by different manners, it can be talked about, it can be asked, it can be considered. Is that useless? Or it's the way not to think about other things at that moment, that is parami, so very subtle, but we just think about the straight way, just saying that seeing sees, that's all. [Yes, Than Ajahn, now I understand.]
All by conditions.

[Than Ajahn, that means we have to be confident in the Teachings that all dhammas are anatta.]

Each one has to be considered, about that which is now appearing, But who can be aware, with understanding, of that without understanding it little by little, by different ways, different manners, different questions. So now, begin again, study Dhamma to understand dhamma, not to understand the number. Right? So, that's why we have to know what dhamma is, to know that we are now studying Dhamma. Dhamma is seeing right now, and what about the citta before seeing?

Understanding more is the only way to let go, gradually, unknowingly, so subtly

So, how many cittas experience just one object? All are dhammas, now! And the understanding gets firmer and firmer. [Yes, that's right Than Ajahn.]
Even we don't count the number of dhatu as 18 dhatus, by way of doorways, when we talk about the 18 dhatus, it's by doorways, right? Seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, experience only each object, only one object, one doorway.

But the other citta, we learn from the book, the number, pañca-dvara-avajjana-citta, mano-dvara-avajjana-citta, are they different? By what? They can experience five objects through five doorways only, and how many are they? Pañca-dvara-avajjana and sampaticchana experience five doorways only. One pañca-dvara-avajjana and two sampaticchana - one kusala-vipaka and one akusala-vipaka. Why do we learn about their names? It's there right now, unseen, unknown, because what can be known has to be only through six doorways. Only. No matter in this world, or in hell, or in deva, brahma realms, only six doorways. That's why we learn about the six objects through six doorways, that they are there now, unknown, and how firm it is, as not I, not the word - it's not I, it sees, and so on. That's not enough at all. Because learning Dhamma, no matter what way, degree, by way of intellectual understanding, pariyatti, or patipatti, or pativedha, it's just about what is there now. Not known at all, to be known little by little, to have firm confidence, but not directly yet, even it's there, arising and falling away. And how can it be condition for getting closer to the truth, which is there now, little by little? If there is no understanding, well enough, firm enough, clear enough, how can there be the second round? Doubting about this and that, eye or cakkhu and so on, just talking about it. It's not just talking about it without understanding the truth.

When we talk about dhatu, 18 dhatu, we don't mind the number, but the way, the understanding of how many cittas experience one object, it's by way of dhatus, different doorways. Sampaticchana, through how many doorways can it experience an object? This is to let go, to have firm confidence of no-self. Not just by word or number, but by understanding, even it's not appearing, but it's there. It can be known, through what doorway? The object of the mind door and the object of the sense door, the five doors the and sixth door. Learn to understand no matter what is there in Tipitaka, the Teachings of the Buddha, because one understands that it's so very helpful, it's so very precious, without that, with just few words, one doesn't make any progress at all. We have been learning about citta, for how long? It's still that. But the more understanding of each word, which is the way, understanding more is the only way to let go, gradually, unknowingly, so subtly. That is the Teachings about what is there right now, since aeons and aeons ago, unknown. In darkness, even it seems so light now, seeing this and that, but no understanding of the truth at all. it's the word of atta, something.

Many ways by each different accumulation to understand the truth

When there is the understanding of - what is there now? It's dhatu, but we don't have to name it or call it what dhatu, but the reality is there to be known that it cannot be the other dhatu, because it sees and so on. That's why even questioning has to be so useful as condition for considering a little more carefully, but it depends. But the most important is no matter what's the question, about the number or the characteristic or how many doorways, it depends on understanding it, but not to cling to it, to try to ask questions about all in a day. But understanding the point, no matter whether it's in the question or not in the question, just for developing the understanding of the truth, because it's there, see. And when we say seeing sees, it means one object, only one doorway.

The most important is - understanding the truth. So, anyone interested in numbers, the 18 dhatus, can study, but what for? Understanding the reality which is dhatu right then, that is there, not known yet. So, there are many ways for each different person, by each different accumulation, to understand the truth, one's own way by one's own accumulated conditions. But what about understanding? Are there other cittas which experience their object through more than one doorway? To understand that each citta is different and learning more to understand more about its truth, why it cannot experience through the other doorways, and why it can experience through such and such doorway and so on, their difference, each moment. The basic, the base, the foundation to let go of the idea of self. So very gradually, a little more firmer and firmer and firmer. Begin again, begin again, begin again... Because what has been heard, what is there, is covered up by other moments - ignorance, attachment and other akusala. That's why, begin again to open up the truth a little more, little by little, again and again.

Glossary of Pali words used:
Dhamma - That which is real in the ultimate sense, absolute reality (paramattha dhamma), subtle reality (abhidhamma).
Citta - The reality (dhamma) which is chief in experiencing the object (arammana)
Mano - Another word for citta.
Viññana - Yet another word for citta.
Dhatu - Element, another word for dhamma.
Cakkhu_viññana- The citta which sees visible object (rupa_arammana) / color (vanna).
Sota_viññana - The citta which hears audible object (sadda_arammana) / sound (sadda).
Ghana_viññana - The citta which smells odourable object (gandha_arammana) / odour (gandha).
Pañca_dvara_avajjana - The first citta of a five-door-process (adverting to their objects).
Mano_dvara_avajjana - The first citta of the mind-door-process (adverting to its objects).
Vipaka - The mental realities (nama-dhammas, i.e. citta and cetasikas) which are the result of a kamma.
Kusala - Citta arising with the mental factors (cetasikas) which make that moment wholesome.
Akusala - Citta arising with the mental factors (cetasikas) which make that moment unwholesome.
Pariyatti - The understanding gained by hearing the Teachings of the Buddha and by thinking and considering them.
Patipatti - Reaching a specific, particular dhamma, understanding directly its characteristic (lakkhana).
Pativedha - The moment of penetrating the truth because of a specific dhamma appearing very clearly as it actually is.

#Dhammahome source video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNnniUNgEAI