Not dreaming at moment of understanding—even in a dream
Excerpt from the Dhamma discussion with Ajahn Sujin in English on Zoom on Sun Apr 26th 2026 pm.
Not dreaming at the moment of understanding — even in a dream
[Tam B.] I would like to ask a question about whether there can be kusala while dreaming.
[A. Sujin] So, what is dreaming? [Citta, Ajahn.]
Okay, can citta be kusala? [Citta can be kusala...]
So, what citta is dreaming? [The citta that thinks.]
Okay, dreaming is thinking. Through which doorway? [Through the mind-door.]
See, that's how we understand the truth. Can the mind-door citta be kusala? [Yes.]
So, why can it not be kusala while dreaming? It is not only akusala citta — just like now, it is not only akusala citta right now.
What is the difference between dreaming and now? [The cittas in dreams are considered very weak.]
Can there be the moment of realization of the truth in a dream? [No.]
That's why the difference between dreaming and not dreaming is the moment of understanding, right? [Yes.]
Can there be any understanding in a dream? [No.]
Really? So, does this mean that while dreaming there are only akusala moments?
Did you dream last night? [Yes.]
About? Only akusala? Or can one dream about kusala events too? So, what did you dream about last night? [I can't remember.]
Some kinds, some days, can't they be remembered? [Sometimes I can remember Dhamma discussions.]
Is it wholesome or not wholesome? [I can even think about the Dhamma in a dream.]
So, can there be other kusala moments? Not just dreaming about Dhamma discussions. [I don't know.]
So, is it wholesome thinking or unwholesome thinking right now? [Mostly unwholesome.]
So, in a dream, mostly...? [For sure, Ajahn.]
Can't there be some moments of kusala as well, like now? Can anyone stop citta from being wholesome while dreaming? [It cannot be stopped.]
Citta can also be wholesome while dreaming
No matter what doorway it is, citta which is wholesome or unwholesome arises by conditions. [Yes, but the Arahant no longer has any dreams.]
And a Sotāpanna? [Still has dreams.]
Kusala or akusala? [I think he still has akusala cittas...]
So, do you mean that citta is only akusala while dreaming? Or can there be wholesome citta while dreaming too — just like now? If you don't consider the sense-doors in between, there are many moments at the mind-door, which can be wholesome or unwholesome. For those who have no understanding at all, there are more conditions for unwholesomeness in dreams. Where did the Buddha say there is no kusala in dreams? Are those his words?
And if the dream keeps on going without waking up at all, all day and all night, is it unwholesome moments only, or does it arise by conditions? Just like now, this is daydreaming because there are moments of the other sense-doors in between. Can you think with friendliness? [Yes.]
Can't there be thinking in a dream without seeing or hearing — without the processes of the sense-doors in between? Thinking about helping others; thinking of going to listen to the Dhamma; considering and discussing the Dhamma. Can't that be in a dream as well? Are you thinking of helping someone now, to understand the truth? [Sometimes, yes.]
Can that be through the mind-door? [It has to be the mind-door, Ajahn.]
At any moment, or just not in dreams? [Yes, like now.] Yes.
Couldn't there be only dreaming now, when there are no sense-door processes in between? [There could be, Ajahn.]
Couldn't there be kusala moments, just like now, without the sense-doors in between the mind-door processes? What is the difference between this moment of kusala thinking and the moment of thinking of helping someone, or doing something which is wholesome in a dream? [It's very blurry.]
Do you know now whether the past moment was kusala or akusala? [It can be known, Ajahn.]
Really? [Yes.]
What about the present moment — is it kusala or akusala? [Akusala.]
How do you know? [Because there was doubt, Ajahn.]
Really? Can there be doubt in a dream? [There can be.]
Can there be no doubt in a dream? [Yes.]
Exactly the same: at the mind-door, there is no seeing, no hearing, no smelling, and no touching — only thinking. [But like the Arahant, he has no dreams anymore.]
And before becoming an Arahant, can there be good dreams? [Yes, there can be dreaming about devas; that's what I've heard.]
Or about teaching, talking, and discussing the Dhamma with someone — not about killing, stealing, hating, or harming. Can there be dreaming about talking about the Dhamma with others? [Yes.]
Is it wholesome or unwholesome dreaming? [Even now...]
Not now, but in a dream. What about an Anāgāmī? [Having a Dhamma discussion with a friend in a dream...]
Is it an akusala moment? [Not sure, Ajahn.]
Citta has to be kusala or akusala, or vipāka or kiriya. So right now, is citta kusala or akusala? [Because there's still doubt.]
It is the same — just like dreaming, just like now. Exactly. Kusala is kusala, akusala is akusala, kiriya is kiriya, vipāka is vipāka. Who knows? It has to be sati and sampajañña that can know the exact moment, taking the object as it is.
The difference between thinking and dreaming
So now, while talking, is there irritation in between, unpleasant feeling in between, kusala or akusala in between? A single citta cannot be of two kinds; it cannot be vipāka and kiriya, or kusala and akusala mixed at all.
So, is thinking now not like thinking in a dream? How do you know that it's different? It is only when there is another doorway appearing; otherwise, when there are no sense-door objects or sense-door cittas arising in between at all, how can one know whether it's a dream or not? Like now, see, what is there is not clear, right? Whether it's wholesome or unwholesome. It is the same as in a dream. [Yes. I think when the citta is akusala, it's very clear.]
Really? So, is there diṭṭhāsava now? [Yes.]
Who knows? It is the same as in a dream: there is no certain, no exact, or clear understanding of what is there. That's why we say, 'I'm thinking' or 'I'm dreaming,' because there are no other processes — no sense-door processes — in between at all. Otherwise, how could it be known that it's a dream? Because thinking is thinking, through the mind-door. While there are no other doorways (sense-doorways) in between, how can it be known whether it's dreaming or not dreaming? Isn't that right?
Without sense-door processes in between, how can it be known whether it's dreaming or not dreaming? [Even in between the moments of dreaming at night, there can also be some sense-door processes.]
So, can you say that there are sense-door processes in between the mind-door processes? Aren't we dreaming about it now through the mind-door, even while there are also sense-door processes in between? [Yes.]
Dreaming, when not knowing whether it's kusala or akusala
What arise more? To know that it was not a dream or that it was a dream? How can it be known whether it's a dream or not? [Not knowing whether it's true or not true.]
What do you mean by true or not true? What does dreaming dream about? It is not at moment of thinking, not at moment of dreaming. That's why, which doorway arises more than the other doorways, to be taken for dreaming — whether day-dreaming or night-dreaming? [The mind-door.]
So, is there day-dreaming now or night-dreaming now? [Now it's day-dreaming.]
See, it is the same — thinking. It is just a word, isn't it? Thinking has to be thinking. It cannot see, it cannot hear; it thinks, and there is so much fantasy thinking by conditions. That's why last night I dreamt about... See, who knows? And tonight, what will the dream be about? It is unknown, just like now. What kind of thinking occurs in between sense-door processes? Can it be expected? Can it be known? Not at all, just like in a dream. No one knows what tonight's dream will be about.
But it's thinking. And for the one who is insane, what about their thinking? Just like an ordinary person, what about the madman? [He also thinks, but it's very incoherent.]
Yes, but thinking is thinking. And thinking can be kusala by conditions or akusala by conditions. [Yes.]
Even right now, the akusala moment is unknown, and the kusala moment is unknown. Is it different from thinking? Can a moment of kusala be known now? [Now it's mostly akusala.]
How do you know that it's mostly akusala? [Because...] more conditions.
So, there are more conditions to condition thinking, no matter whether while dreaming or just like now. It is exactly the same — arising by conditions. Thinking is thinking, for sure. But when there are sense-door processes in between, it thinks about that — about the same object of the sense-door. And who can stop the dreaming conditioned by the accumulation of today's sense-door processes, or yesterday's, or from a past life, or a long time ago? Who knows? It is fantasy thinking. And for the madman, it is fantasy thinking, but thinking is thinking.
Can thinking in a dream be different from thinking now — the thinking itself? [Can you say that again?]
Can the thinking now also be like the thinking in a dream? Or can it not be in a dream? It is only thinking, but it's different because of conditions. For the wise one and the ignorant one, can they think the same? Are there the same conditions for different people? [Not the same conditions.]
That's why thinking cannot be anything else — it is thinking only — and there are so many, many, uncountable objects of thinking arising by conditions. That's why when we say, 'I'm dreaming,' it's simply thinking without sense-door processes in between, for a longer period than in daydreaming.
The moment of helping others in a dream
Because even now, we think that we are talking and thinking, but what about seeing? It seems to be there all day. How come? And who knows what is there after seeing — kusala or akusala? So now, what is this moment — kusala or akusala? Can it be known?
If it's not known, it's the same as dreaming: it's not known whether it's kusala or akusala. Like now, going shopping and going to read a book on the Dhamma. And in a dream, can't there be a moment of reading? It is not exactly like when we are not dreaming, but the idea is there. Doesn't one in a dream go somewhere, just like now — whether kusala or akusala? Helping others in a dream — and what is the moment of helping others now? A kusala moment or an akusala moment?
So, thinking is thinking. It can think about anything, and it's not only unwholesome thinking which has conditions to arise, because thinking can be wholesome or unwholesome, no matter whether it is in a dream or not.
What about thinking about the good deeds that you have done, and thinking about kusala moments in a dream — about what you have done? It is the same — kusala. Kusala cannot be akusala, for sure. But while there are sense-doors in between, like now, it seems like there are more sense-door processes than mind-door ones. But in truth, mind-door processes are more frequent than sense-door ones. Isn't that right? [Yes.]
Exactly the same as dreaming. But which is more? Are the sense-doors more, or are the mind-doors more? Or what appears more — the object which is seen, or the object of thinking? Who knows? But thinking can be kusala, for sure.
Just like now, how many moments of kusala are there? Less or more than akusala? It is the same as in dreaming. And what is more — the attachment and ignorance following the seeing process, or that which is in the process of seeing itself? And seeing sees all day. What about dreaming? It's not all day, nor is it all night. So, what occurs more during the day or in a dream? [Akusala.]
Both during the day and in a dream. And can there be kusala in between the sense-door processes during the day? [Yes.]
So, the same applies in a dream. There can be moments of kusala, just as there can be moments of kusala while not dreaming. But the mind-door processes condition the idea of dreaming. Even now, the mind-door processes are more frequent than sense-door processes. But the sense-door processes seem to be there all day — there seems to be seeing all day, and the other sense-door processes too. That's why we don't take it for a dream, but life is a dream. No matter whether it's a night dream or a day dream, thinking is there. [But, Ajahn, at the moment of kusala, do we call it a daydream?]
It doesn't matter what we call it — a day or a night dream. It is as it is. Kusala is kusala. Akusala is akusala. What about the heaven or Brahma planes? Is there a mind-door? There can be doubt about whether they dream or not, you see. What is longer, night or day?
It's not a matter of using different words to represent thinking in different ways, but the truth is that citta is citta. Thinking is not seeing, that's all. It does not matter whether we take it to be a dream or not, here or there, in heaven or in hell. Who knows? Thinking is always thinking. It cannot be changed. It is conditioned to arise and it falls away instantly, no matter whether it is in a dream or not; that's the way it is. But the idea about it must be there.
Dreaming: when there is more thinking than through the other doorways
Does anyone sleep during the day, instead of at night? [Many people.]
Many people do, but sleeping is sleeping — these are mind-door processes. We can think a lot without paying any attention to any sense-door object at all, even while there are so many sense-door processes in between.
But when we use the word 'dream', it's just thinking — more thinking than experiencing through the other doorways. And thinking can be about anything, even if it hasn't appeared in this life. There can be a moment of thinking about something which hasn't been seen before at all in this life. But by conditions, thinking can think about anything. Isn't that true? [Yes.]
Even right now, thinking can think about anything, just as we are now thinking about dreaming.
What is it? Whether it can be kusala, or whether it cannot be kusala, or whether it can be neither? By conditions — the javana moments. There are so many conditions for each moment to arise.
So, we consider again and again: can there be kusala citta while dreaming? If not, why not? Because it's thinking; it's a mind-door process. It can think about anything. Tonight, one might dream about kusala deeds — paying respect, in a dream, to a person who deserves it. Is it wholesome at that moment? It's not killing; there are no bad words directed towards that person who deserves respect.
So, can there be kusala citta in a dream? If not, why not? Can anyone stop the conditions for kusala to arise in mind-door processes, no matter whether it's in a dream or not?
What we call dreaming are moments when there are no sense-door processes — at least not for as long or as much as during the day.
Let's see tonight's dream, whether it's kusala or akusala. Just like now, at the mind-door. What is this moment — kusala or akusala? [It is kusala, Ajahn.]
And the previous moment? [Akusala.]
And the next moment? [Akusala, mostly.]
Even if you don't call it dreaming, is thinking still kusala or akusala by conditions? [Now there's attachment to little Tiger.]
In a dream, and also now, is there any kusala towards Tiger? [Yes.]
So, can it be a dream? Let's see tonight, and look back afterward to see whether it was kusala or akusala dreaming. [Usually I don't remember my dreams.]
Tonight's? Not yet. Kusala or akusala? Who knows until it's there. So, tomorrow there might be some hint of kusala or akusala in the dream after tonight. [I think it's not that easy, Ajahn.]
But when you can remember what the dream was about, there can be a moment of knowing whether it was kusala or akusala. Just like now — who knows whether this moment is kusala or akusala? But it can be known.
[Jonothan] Doesn't it require paññā to distinguish moments of kusala from akusala?
[A. Sujin] That's why there is conditioned doubt about dreaming, and whether it's kusala or akusala — just like now. [Thank you, Ajahn.]
Kha! Sawasdee kha, everyone.
Mp3 audio file: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hi0uwgdFM5tmPQ3kwq5sG2XFpPAJDC6V
Dhamma Foundation's source video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz8-ulLkPDU