Not dreaming at moment of understanding—even in a dream
Excerpt from the Dhamma discussion with Ajahn Sujin in English on Zoom on Sun Apr 26th 2026 pm.
Not dreaming at moment of understanding, even in a dream
[Tam B.] I would like to ask a question about whether there can be kusala while dreaming.
[A. Sujin] So, what dreams? [Citta, Ajahn.]
Okay, can citta be kusala? [Citta can be kusala...]
So, what citta is dreaming? [The citta that thinks.]
Okay, dreaming is thinking. What doorway? [Through the mind-door.]
See, that's how we understand the truth. Can the mind-door-citta be kusala? [Yes.]
So, why not being kusala while dreaming? Not only akusala citta. Like now, not only akusala citta right now.
What is the difference between dreaming and now? [The citta in dreams are considered very weak.]
Can there be the moment of realization of the truth in a dream? [No.]
That's why the difference between dreaming and not dreaming is the moment of understanding, right? [Yes.]
Can there be any understanding in a dream? [No.]
Really? So, does this mean that while dreaming there are only akusala moments? Did you dream last night? [Yes.]
About? Only akusala? Or one can dream about kusala events too? So, what did you dream about last night? [I can't remember.]
Some kind, someday, can't it be remembered? [Sometimes I can remember about the Dhamma discussion.]
Is it wholesome or not wholesome? [I can even think about Dhamma in a dream.]
So, can there be other kusala moments? Not just dreaming about Dhamma discussions. [I don't know.]
So now, is it wholesome thinking or unwholesome thinking right now? [Mostly unwholesome.]
So, in a dream, mostly...? [For sure, Ajahn.]
Can't there be some moments of kusala as well, like now? Can anyone stop citta to be wholesome while dreaming? [Cannot be stopped.]
Citta can be wholesome also while dreaming
No matter what doorway it is, citta which is wholesome or unwholesome arise by conditions. [Yes, but, the Arahant, doesn't have any dreams anymore.]
And Sotapanna? [Still has dreams.]
Kusala or akusala? [I think he still has akusala cittas...]
So, you mean that citta is akusala while dreaming? Or it can be wholesome citta while dreaming too, in a dream, just like now, if you don't talk about the sense-door in between, many moments of mind-door, wholesome or unwholesome. For those who have no understanding at all, more conditions for unwholesomeness in dreams. Where did the Buddha say: no kusala in dreams? Is it his words?
And if the dream keeps on going without waking up at all, all day, all night; unwholesome moments only or what? Or by conditions? Just like now, this is daydreaming because there are moments of the other sense-doors in between. Can you think with friendliness? [Yes.]
Can't it be in a dream, without seeing or hearing, the processes of sense-door, in between? Thinking to help. Thinking of going to listen; considering, discussing about Dhamma. Can't that be in a dream as well? Are you thinking of helping someone now, to understand the truth? [Sometimes, yes.]
Can that be through the mind-door? [It has to be mind-door, Ajahn.]
At any moment or just not in dreams? [Yes, like now.] Yes.
Couldn't there be only dreaming now, when there are no-sense-door's processes at all in between? [There could be, Ajahn.]
Couldn't there be kusala moments, just like now, without the sense-doors in between the mind-door processes? What is the difference between this moment of kusala thinking and the moment thinking of helping someone or doing something which is wholesome in a dream? [It's very blurred.]
Do you know now whether the past moment was kusala or akusala? [It can be known, Ajahn.]
Really? [Yes.]
What about the present moment, kusala or akusala? [Akusala.]
How do you know? [Because there was doubt, Ajahn.]
Really? Can there be doubt in a dream? [There can be.]
Can there be no doubt in a dream? [Yes.]
Exactly the same, mind-door; not seeing, not hearing, not smelling, not touching; only thinking. [But like the arahat, he has no dreams anymore.]
And before becoming arahat, can there be good dreams? [Yes, there can be the dreaming about deva, that's what I've heard.]
Or about teaching, talking, discussing Dhamma with someone. Not about killing, stealing, hating, harming. Can there be dreaming about talking Dhamma with others? [Yes.]
Is it wholesome or unwholesome dreaming? [Even now...]
Not now, in a dream. Anagami... [Having a Dhamma discussion with a friend in a dream...]
Is it akusala moment? [Not sure, Ajahn.]
Citta has to be kusala or akusala, or vipaka or kiriya. So now, is citta kusala or akusala? [Because there's still doubt.]
The same. Just like dreaming. Just like now. Exactly. Kusala is kusala, akusala is akusala, kiriya is kiriya, vipaka is vipaka. Who knows? It has to be sati and sampajanna which can know the exact moment, as object, as it is.
The difference between thinking and dreaming
So now, while talking, is there irritation in between, unpleasant feeling in between, kusala or akusala in between? Just one citta cannot be of two kinds, like vipaka and kiriya, or kusala and akusala mixed at all.
So, thinking now, isn't it like thinking in a dream? How do you know that it's different? When there is another doorway appearing, otherwise when there are no sense-door objects or sense-door cittas arising in between at all, how can one know whether it's a dream or not a dream? Like now, see, what is there is not clear, right? Whether it's wholesome or unwholesome. The same as in a dream. [Yes. I think when the citta is akusala, it's very clear.]
Really? So, is there ditthasava now? [Yes.]
Who knows? The same as in a dream. No certain, no exact, no clear understanding of what is there. That's why we say, 'I'm thinking' or 'I'm dreaming,' because no other processes, sense-door ones, in between at all. Otherwise, how could it be known that it's a dream? Because thinking is thinking, through the mind-door. While there are no other doorways, sense-doorways, in between, how can it be known whether it's dreaming or not dreaming? Isn't it right?
Without the sense-door in between, how can it be known whether it's dreaming or not dreaming? [Even in between the moments of dreaming at night, there can be also some sense-door processes.]
So, can you say that there are sense-door processes in between the mind-door processes? Aren't we dreaming about it now, through the mind-door and there are also sense-doors processes in between? [Yes.]
Dreaming, when not knowing whether it's kusala or akusala
What is more? To be known that it was not a dream or that it was a dream. How can it be known whether it's a dream or not a dream? [Not knowing whether it's true or not true.]
What do you mean by true or not true? Dreaming dreams about what? Not the moment of thinking. Not the moment of dreaming. That's why what doorway arise more than the other doorways, to be taken for dreaming, day-dream or night-dream? [Mind-door.]
So, is there day-dreaming now or night-dreaming now? [Now it's day-dreaming.]
See, the same, thinking. Just the word. Isn't it? Thinking has to be thinking. It cannot see, it cannot hear; it thinks, and so much fantasy thinking, by conditions. That's why last night I dreamt about... See, who knows? And tonight, what will the dream be about? Unknown, like now; what kind of thinking in between sense-door processes? Can it be expected? Can it be known? Not at all, just like in a dream. No one knows what tonight's dream will be about.
But it's thinking, and for the one who is insane, what about his thinking? Just like common people, ordinary one, the mad man? [He also thinks, but it's very incoherent.]
Yes, but thinking is thinking. And thinking can be kusala by conditions or akusala by conditions. [Yes.]
Even right now, the akusala moment is unknown, and the kusala moment is unknown. Is it different from thinking? Can the moment of kusala be known now? [Now it's mostly akusala.]
How do you know that it's mostly akusala? [Because...] more conditions.
So, more conditions to condition thinking, no matter while dreaming or just like now. Exactly the same, by conditions. Thinking is thinking for sure. But when there are sense-door's processes in between, it thinks about that, about the same object of sense-door. And who can stop the dreaming conditioned by the accumulation of today's sense-door-processes or yesterday or last life or long time ago? Who knows? Fantasy thinking.
And for the mad man, fantasy thinking, but thinking is thinking. Can thinking be different from thinking now, the thinking itself? [Can you say it again?]
Can the thinking now also be the thinking in a dream? Or cannot be in a dream? It is only thinking, but it's different by conditions. For the wise one and the ignorant one, can they think the same? Are there the same conditions for different people? [Not the same conditions.]
That's why thinking cannot be anything else, it is thinking only, and there are so many, many, uncountable object of thinking, by conditions. That's why even we say, 'I'm dreaming,' it's thinking without sense-door processes in between, for longer than in daydreaming.
The moment of helping others in a dream
Because even now, we think that we are talking and thinking, but what about seeing? It seems it's there all day. How come? And who knows what is there after the seeing, kusala or akusala? So now, what is this moment, kusala or akusala? Can it be known?
If it's not known, it's the same like dreaming: it's not known whether it's kusala or akusala. Like now, going shopping and going to read the book on Dhamma. And in a dream, can't there be moment of reading? Not just like when it's not a dream, but the idea is there. Doesn't one in a dream go somewhere, like now; kusala or akusala? Helping others in a dream. And what is moment of helping others now? Kusala moment or akusala moment?
So, thinking is thinking. It can think about anything, and it's not just only unwholesome thinking which has conditions to arise because thinking can be wholesome or unwholesome, no matter in a dream or not in a dream.
What about thinking about the good deeds that you have done, and thinking about kusala moments in a dream, about that which you have done? The same, kusala. Kusala cannot be akusala, for sure. But while there are sense-door in between, like now, it seems like there are more sense-door processes than mind-door ones. But in truth, mind-doors are more than sense-doors. Isn't that right? [Yes.]
Exactly the same as dreaming. But what is more? The sense-doors are more or the mind-doors are more? Or what appears more? The object which is seen or the object of thinking? Who knows? But thinking can be kusala, for sure.
Just like now, how many moments of kusala? Less or more than akusala? The same as in dreaming. And what is more? The attachment and ignorance following the seeing process or in the process of seeing? And seeing sees all day. What about dreaming? It's not all day. It's not all night. So, what's more in a day or in a dream? [Akusala.]
Both in a day and in a dream. And can there be kusala in between the sense-door process in a day? [Yes.]
So, the same applies to dreaming, in a dream. There can be moments of kusala as there can be moments of kusala while not dreaming. But the mind-door processes condition the idea of dreaming. Even now, the mind-door processes are more than sense-door processes. But the sense-door processes seems to be there all day, there seems to be seeing all day, and the other processes of sense-doors too. That's why we don't take it for a dream, but life is a dream. No matter it's night dream or day dream, thinking is there. [But, Acharn, at the moment of kusala, do we call it daydream?]
It doesn't matter what we call it, day or night dream. It is as it is. Kusala is kusala. Akusala is akusala. What about heaven, Brahma plane? Is there mind-door? There can be doubt whether they dream or not, see. What is longer, night or day?
It's not a matter of using any word to represent the thinking in different manners, but the truth is that citta is citta. Thinking is not seeing, that's all. No matter we take it for a dream or not a dream, here or there, heaven or hell. Who knows? Thinking is always thinking. It cannot be changed. It is conditioned to arise and falls away instantly, no matter in a dream or not in a dream; that's the way it is. But the idea about it is there.
Dream, when there is more thinking than the other doorways
Does anyone sleep during the day, not at night? [Many people.]
Many people, but sleeping is sleeping. Mind-door processes. We can think a lot without paying any attention to any sense-door object at all, while there are so many sense-door-processes too, in between.
But when we talk about the word 'dream', it's just thinking, more thinking than the other doorways. And thinking can think about anything, even if it hasn't appeared in this life. There can be moment of such thinking about that which hasn't been seen before at all in this life. But by conditions, thinking can think about anything. Isn't it true? [Yes.]
Even right now, thinking can think about anything, like we are now thinking about dreaming.
What is it? Whether it can be kusala or whether it cannot be kusala, or whether it can be either, by conditions - the javana moments. So many conditions for each moment to arise.
So, we consider again and again, can there be kusala citta while dreaming? If not, why not? Because it's thinking. It's mind-door process. It can think about anything. Tonight, dreaming about kusala deeds, paying respect, in a dream, to the person who deserves it. Is it wholesome, at that moment? It's not killing. It's not bad words towards that person who deserves respect.
So, can there be kusala citta in a dream? If not, why not? Can anyone stop conditions for kusala to arise in mind-door processes, no matter it's in a dream or not in a dream?
What we call dreaming are moments when there's no sense-door processes, not for as long or as much as in daylight, during the day.
Let's see tonight's dream, whether it's kusala or akusala. Just like now. mind-door. What is this moment, kusala or akusala? [It is kusala Ajahn.]
And the previous moment? [Akusala.]
And the next moment? [Akusala, mostly.]
If you don't say dreaming, is thinking still kusala or akusala? By conditions. [Now there's attachment to little Tiger.]
In a dream, and now, is there any kusala towards Tiger? [Yes.]
So, can it be a dream? Let's see tonight, after that, whether it's kusala or akusala dreaming. [Usually I don't remember my dreams.]
Tonight's? Not yet. Kusala or akusala? Who knows until it's there. So, tomorrow there can be any hint of kusala or akusala in a dream after tonight. [I think it's not that easy, Ajahn.]
But when you can remember what was the dream about, there can be moment of knowing whether it was kusala or akusala. Just like now, who knows whether this moment is kusala or akusala? But it can be known.
[Jonothan] Doesn't it require pañña to understand moments of kusala from akusala?
[A. Sujin] That's why it conditions doubt about dreaming, whether it's kusala or akusala. Just like now. [Thank you, Ajahn.]
Kha! Sawadee kha, everyone.
Mp3 audio file: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hi0uwgdFM5tmPQ3kwq5sG2XFpPAJDC6V
Dhamma Foundation's source video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz8-ulLkPDU