Four upada (derived) rupas, wherever there are the four maha-bhuta

(Excerpt from the Dhamma discussion with Ajahn Sujin and Nepali students in Bkk on Tue Apr 23rd 2024 |Rupa|part 2|) Audio file: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AujD6qLjtvuOjw-T6mXZ8benjHme

must have at least the four rupas, the main four, and another four, derived from those which are there. There must be the main ones, no matter what is there, water or heat or whatever, in every rupa. So when we talk about water, it's just what we take for that. But in truth, very tiny, we can break up everything into the tiniest particle.

There must be at least these rupas, main ones, four main rupas, and derived rupas, another four. That's why in an atom or one particle, the tiniest one, there are eight rupas. The four main and the other four, arising together because unbreakable, indivisible rupa, all eight together, but the main ones must be the four primary rupas.

So how many rupas are there? Even it's just the smallest, tiniest particle, how many rupas are there? There must be the four main ones, and the other four derived, inseparable. All other derived rupas cannot arise without the four, but together eight, in the tiniest group. So, for the four kinds of rupa, which are the main rupa, the primary rupas, we use the term maha-bhuta rupa. Maha is big or great, maha is Pali word. And bhuta is also Pali, and there are many meanings of bhuta, too.

So, I'll tell you the name and the nature of the other four arising together, but they're not the main or the primary. Visible object. Where is it? It is wherever the maha-bhuta rupas are, it's there, it's seen. Maha-bhuta rupas can be touched, but this is visible object and it's just the derived rupa, and the Pali word for derived rupa is upada-rupa, or sometimes upadaya-rupa. Upada-rupas are those rupa derived from maha-bhuta rupas. That's why they have to be there together. No one can separate them, inseparable rupas. So, no matter what kind of rupa, there must be maha-bhuta rupa as the main or the primary rupa.

So now you know, with visible object there must be the four maha-bhuta rupas. And one more, four kinds of upada rupa. That's why indivisible group, there must be eight at least. And the four main ones are the foundation. So, we are talking about how many rupas right now... [Four.] Visible object is one more. So now, five. They're eight all together... [Apo?] No, apo is maha-bhuta rupa. So remember the main four. And the other rupas, no matter what, there are four main rupas. Nothing can be the main rupa except only four. And any other rupa is upada rupa.

So what is sound? Is it real? [Yes.] So, what kind of rupa it is? Now we are talking about a reality. So, listen again, again, again, and more and more and more considering. How many primary rupas? [There are four.] Okay. Are there any other rupas? [Yes, upada rupa.] Okay, there are other rupas, no matter what, they cannot be maha-bhuta rupas. Remember, there are just only four maha-bhuta. Just understand what is maha-bhuta and how many maha-bhuta. And nothing can be maha-bhuta except just four. What are they? Pathavi, tejo, vayo, apo.

So, is sound maha-bhuta? [No.] Nothing else can be maha-bhuta rupa at all. No question about maha-bhuta rupa now? Can maha-bhuta rupa experience the object? [No.] No matter what, all kinds of rupa cannot experience the object at all. So now, what is sound? [Upada rupa.] Is sound visible object? [No.] So how many rupas are there now? [Six.] Six, but sound does not arise all the time with maha-bhuta rupa. Sometimes sound arises and sometimes no sound. But every time, whenever maha-bhuta rupas are there, there must be visible object, one. And second, not sound but smell. Visible object and smell. And the third one is taste. And what is the other one? We're just talking about the four kinds of maha-bhuta and then the four upadaya rupas only.

Whenever, wherever there are maha-bhuta rupas, there must be the other four derived rupas. One is visible object. Second? [Smell, but sometimes no smell.] Even when smell does not appear, it's there, but there's no smelling, so how can smell appear? When smell appears, it means that smelling is also there. But where is the smell? Together with maha-bhuta rupas.

So now, is the cohesion what we call apo, maha-bhuta rupa? [Yes.] Can it arise alone? [No.] That's it. All four have to arise together. And in a piece of rupa, so many groups, we can chop them, cut them up, so very finely, but they're still the four maha-bhuta rupas, and the other four upadaya rupas, which are visible object, smell, taste, and what else? We're comeing back to food.

If I say what is food, no meaning, but when you understand the rupa, then you know when and what it is. So, there's another rupa, it's not just the taste. The taste is the taste: sweet, bitter, salty, and so on, but the other one is the nutrition, oja. The nutrition, that's why you eat. Sweetness is sweet, it's not nutrition. Smell is smell, it's not nutrition. But in each group of rupa, at least eight, one is nutrition. That's why we eat the rupa which conditions rupa, another rupa. That's why we need to eat, to be condition for rupa to arise. Because each rupa falls away.

Without this rupa, how can it live or how it can keep going on as rupa? That's why this one is very unknown, nutrition. Can anyone eat this? It can be eaten by someone or by some life form like ants and whatever. So there must be nutrition in each rupa. There must be nutrition, not for human being, for the ants, the termites, and so on. What can eat it when it's so very finely chopped? For example, the bees, what do they eat? The bees... do they like rice, can they eat rice? See? So very, very fine, there must be nutrition for the body. From the, what is there, in the rose or anywhere, even the teak or the wood, it's nutrition too. [For termites?] Yes. Does the mosquito eat? [Blood.] See? Is there nutrition? In each group. We think that this cannot be eaten, but there are factories or someone who can make food from this, like for the pills.

So in each kalapa, which means group, one group is a kalapa, there must be at least eight rupas, the four primaries and four of the derived rupas. So we now understand the eight, right? So, at least how many rupas in a kalapa? Kalapa is the smallest group, no matter how finely you cut it. Kalapa is the group. So, just the dust, can you see the dust? How many rupas? [Eight.] Eight, at least the indivisibles, they are always together.

So at moment of eating, what is there, taken? Is there hardness, temperature? [Maha-bhuta and upada rupa.] All eight. And what about when sound is there? There is sound, what is sound? [Sound is also upada rupa.] Right. So, it's upadaya rupa, but not in the group of eight. And so when there is sound, how many rupas are there? [Nine.] So, nine, so in some kalapa there are eight rupas. Some other kalapa have nine. Some other kalapas, ten and so on.

So now we use Pali term, what is vanno? [Color.] Ghando? [Ghando is smell]. Raso... [Taste.] And oja? [Oja is nutrition.] Yes. So, at least eight rupas in a group. And when there is sound, one more, nine rupas in that group.

#DhammahomeTV source video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rl77piOYFEI