Kilesa, it depends on right understanding to have less or more
Excerpt from the Dhamma discussion with Ajahn Sujin and Nepali students in Bkk on Mon Jul 15th 2024.
Mp3 audio file: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AujD6qLjtvuOjxST6mXZ8benjHme
Nine kinds of kilesa, defilement
We are now talking about Khun Supannarit, whether he has kilesa. He just said that he has lobha. So how many groups of lobha has he got now? The nature of lobha, because lobha can be in any group. That's why we talk about one group at a time. So, you have lobha, what kind or what group? Just one. [Kama-raga-anusaya.] And you? [Kama-asava.] Divya? [Kama-chanda-nivarana.] What is the difference between kama-raga-anusaya and kama-asava and kama-chanda-nivarana? Can you know what moment it's kama-asava? [No.] Why not? Because it's so very slight, even right now, who knows that there is attachment to the object which is seen? That's why it's the kilesa at the level of asava. Anusaya (latent tendency) does not arise, but when it does arise, it's so very slight as asava. That's why no one knows it at all.
And you? [Kama-chanda-nivarana, attachment to the five objects.] So many moments, but it can be known when it's unhappy moment. Or is it happy moment? Kama-chanda-nivarana, depending on conditions and the objects.
And Khun Hang? [Kama-upadana.] How do you know that there is kama-upadana? [Yes, because I like eating, enjoy the very nice, good Thai food.] That's why at any moment of eating, dressing, talking: anusaya, asava, nivarana, and upadana, four, there are more, five more, nine all togheter.
[Kama-yoga.] What is that? [It keeps beings in samsara.] No need to think about it because it's there, different levels all the time. But any moment when it's there, it's like being in a cage, cannot escape. But much closer than that, yoked.
And you? [Kama-ogha.] Who knows that now we are in the ocean, very wide, very deep. Everywhere around us, how can we reach the bank... very safe to be there. That's why no one's been there yet, when there isn't enough understanding, but understanding is like a miracle. Among all kinds of miracles, the Teaching of the truth is the best, because it can condition one in the ocean to reach the safe bank. When will it be? With patience, always there, joyfully. It's there, it can be reached, it can be attained, but not with laziness, but any moment of understanding conditions getting a little closer to the bank. And one, two, three, four, five, six. Three more. [Avijja-kaya-gantha].
[Samyojana.] What is it? No matter where you are, far away from here, you have to come back to the moment of enjoying what is seen again, and heard again and so on. No matter in what life, in what plane of existence, no matter where you are, but it just pulls you back to the moment of attachment, samyojana.
It's not just to be heard, but to understand the truth. There's a way out, but with parami, patience. Viriya parami, khanti parami, sacca parami, nekkhama parami. In order to give away little by little that it's so very stiky.
[The last is kilesa.] Okay, you see that it's not just to be remembered, that it's kilesa or it is nivarana and so on, but to understand the nature of it as no one, anatta and dhamma. When it's something, it's not dhamma, but when it's there as it is, no one at all, it's dhamma. So how many kilesas? What are there in the group of kilesa? [Ten.] What are they? [Lobha, dosa, moha, anottapa, ditthi, mana, uddaccha, vichikiccha, ahirika, thina-middha].
I think that no matter what's in the book or we've discussed before, there can be a little more to be understood when we consider a little more carefully. Because when it's not clear, at that point we have to look or consider more and more again. That's why, for example, no one knows anusaya at all, never arises, but when it arises, even it is asava, it's not known. But when it's nivarana, can some know? Because it's there, many, many moments, just little by little about everything to be nivarana. What can be known at the moment of when it's kilesa? So we talk about the ten kilesa. Attachment can be known, it's strong enough, or even it's not as strong, but it appears more distinctly than asava, so that it can be known.
When one likes, now I'm learning you like roti, sai mai, at that moment, it appears, about your own attachment. And when it's nivarana, you don't forget it, and you keep on thinking about it, that it's nivarana. But it can be with moments which are so very complex that it's unhealthy moment, just thinking about it, whether it's there, what is the best thing to do about it and so on. So it's not as strong as that which you can know by one characteristic. But it's there been known as nivarana. That's why it appears by different appearances, so you know at the moment when it's kilesa, or when it's nivarana, that they are different moments, right? At the moment of liking it while eating it is attachment, not nivarana, but when it's nivarana, you keep on thinking about it, it depends on how long or short, how strong or not strong, but it appears as nivarana, right? So this can be known. So dosa is there too, it can be known. That's why at the moment of thina-middha, thina can be known. Who can know about middha? That's why what appears as kilesa can be known, the ten kilesa.
Issa, envy
[Can envy also be known?] Envy can be also be known, who doesn't know it? Don't you know that you envy at the moment of being envious? [I'm not sure...] Really? When you dislike someone, and he gets something very good, at that moment... envy. [Dosa is really appearing.] It does matter, because it's not just dosa, about the other's possession. [Yes, right.] Without that, it's dosa, but issa is not like that. When someone gets something better or very good and you don't like that person... but if it's your friend, your relative, you don't have such issa. So issa can be known for sure. Only to the person you dislike, not your friend, not your family. When you are so good, can you be the object of issa? By someone? [Yes, Ajahn.] But when the object is not good, do you have issa for that? Are you envious when that person gets a very bad thing, do you issa? No, see? Dhamma is dhamma! Sometimes we just say it like a joke. Oh, I envy you very much, you got a very good thing, but it's a joke, not really issa. It's just like a compliment, you just got a very good thing, so very special, for which someone might have issa.
Issa vs macchariya
[I have doubt about issa and macchariya.] They're different. Macchariya is about your own possession, which you don't like to share or to give to others, you just keep it for yourself. But when the other's possession is so very good, it depends on who is that person, if it's your sister, your brother, you are joyful. But when it's your enemy, the one you dislike... So who knows except oneself? And no word when it's there. Then it's not the moment to find out whether it is nivarana or kilesa, but it's there to be known.
[Than Ajahn, please explain again why issa and macchariya are not in the group of kilesa.] Issa, macchariya, kukuccha, and middha. Dosa is there, known... Because if you have issa, it means that you are a bad person, but you think you are right all the time. But in truth, whatever is known or can be known it's kilesa, so at the moment of issa, is it kilesa or not kilesa? Is it pariyutthana? Because the person who envies does not realize that it's he who is bad. At moment of issa, is it good? Non-stop considering, again and again until it's clear. But at the moment of issa, who has issa? There can be many aspects to consider, if it disagrees with this aspect, there can be another aspect. So if the meaning doesn't fit in this group, another way to consider it is there. [Because issa is samyojana.] Should one find out or just know that it's this group? Because issa itself has to be with dosa, at that moment, strong dosa is there too.
[Than Ajahn, a sotapanna has eradicated issa.] When you understand the truth, do you issa the truth, the nature, the reality? [No, no more issa, but dosa is still there, right?] Dosa is there, it doesn't mean that whenever there is dosa, there is issa. So there are many degrees of dosa, even there is no issa. And even one hasn't attained the enlightenment stage of sotapanna yet, can there be less issa? [Yes, Ajahn.] So it depends on right understanding to have less or more akusala. So now, what shall we talk about? Kusala or more about akusala. Because one doesn't need to remember the ten, but when it's there, it's just a reality.
[So what is the benefit of learning that there are nine different kinds of akusala?] Is it not a reality? [It is reality.] At the moment it appears, is there any word? Or no word? But understanding theoretically or intellectually can let go the clinging to it as permanent, as someone or something, little by little, without any hope or wish at all, just to understand the truth, to let go of ignorance. That's the point, the only way, the only point. The truth. [Not just to remember the ten, seven, six.] No, but when there's a moment of considering the truth, it can be known. That's why what one is not confident yet, that is what can be known, it's that which is now there. At the moment of thinking, thinking should be known, not the object and keep thinking about it on and on. So now, what can be realized is that which is now appearing, because it's there, otherwise it's gone without any understanding. And it's not anyone, it has to be all the sobhana cetasika.
So when one doesn't have the understanding of sati, one tries so hard. But when there's the understanding of the nature of sati, it stops, no more trying to do something. All depends on conditions, even this moment of considering dhamma, it's not anyone, but it's a reality, considering.
And the best thing is not trying to know the other's unwholesomeness. It's so useless because citta at that moment can only be kusala or akusala. And pañña can see the danger of akusala, even so very slight. Otherwise, one is so good, but at that moment, which kilesa? Ego, mana.
Five kind of macchariya
[There are five kinds of macchariya, stinginess.] One by one, can we talk about it? [Number one is avasa-macchariya, what is it?] Would you like to sit there? Even just the seat, it's mine. On the bus? [I don't really mind about that.] Do you give your seat? [I can give it to...] so, no macchariya at that moment. But what about if someone gets in your house and lives there? That's why even the wat does not belong to any monk.
[And number two, kula-macchariya.] It includes friends, family members. [And vanna-macchariya.] Fame, praise... What about someone would say, that person is more beautiful than you, if you are good-looking. [And labha-macchariya.] Just wanting everything to belong to you only. [And the last one is Dhamma-macchariya.] When you know or have some understanding, would you like to share it with the others? Or just keep it for yourself? Because otherwise the others would be praised and so on.
[So all these five of macchariyas are eradicated by sotapanna, all puthujjana still have all five.] But it can be better and better, less and less macchariya... not needed at all, no matter who owns it, it's gone!
[Ajahn, I wanted to ask, if we make joke or fun of someone, if that person likes it, then is it kusala or akusala?] To have fun, kusala or a kusala? We enjoy akusala, lobha so much. Like funny stories, who doesn't like funny stories? So very funny. What citta is there? No one to judge, only the reality itself. So, what citta is there? I know a joke, shall I tell you? [Yes, please Ajahn.] Everyone enjoys listening to jokes... [Akusala arises, Ajahn.] Right. [Everyone has akusala, because everyone wants to know, wants to listen to.] Very, very funny joke... I'll keep it for myself otherwise you would share it... See, it's hard to say, but it has to be as it is. At that moment, we'd like the others to have happy time, but akusala.
[Katha-vatthu is just talk about sila, samadhi and pañña.] All dhammas are anatta. So, it depends only on right understanding what stage it is, not just repeat it like that. That's why the teaching about the truth is so very, very subtle. Who can see the danger of lobha? One enjoys it very much. So now, what's your life about? Eating, talking about something... [Gossiping.] No need. That's why when the monks were together, they kept silence. They just talked about katha-vatthu, but what about thinking? And if there's no understanding of sobhana moment at all, how can it develop? For example, restraining from such funny jokes... not for those who are not anagami. See, keeping silent, but thinking whether it's kusala or akusala... And thinking can consider smiling or the opposite. What is he thinking? Changing the appearance now.
The three stages of kilesa
Rohan, have you ever told a lie? [Yes, Ajahn]. Is it dangerous or not so dangerous? Not ill deed yet, not wrong deed, not stealing yet. So, when it's not stealing, it is pariyutthana-kilesa, not at the level that it can do unwholesome deeds. At moment of doing unwholesome deeds it is vitikkama-kilesa. There are three stages of kilesa: anusaya (latent), pariyutthana and vitikkama. So, which one was while you told a lie? As long as it's not stealing, killing, and so on it's not kamma, it is only pariyutthana-kilesa. Will you do it again? [No.] Who knows? As long as there is anusaya-kilesa, who knows? That's why sotapanna doesn't tell lies. But since one hasn't been sotapanna yet. Who knows?
Have you ever cheated? [Yes, at exams time.] For sure, while we play games together, we'd like to win. See, cheating is there. But it's not vitikkama-kilesa, it's only pariyutthana-kilesa. Is it dangerous? If you do it very often, every day, it becomes habit and it can condition the ill deeds through speech or deeds. Who knows? But understanding what is unwholesome and that the more is there, it can condition any crime, doing anything. That's why right understanding prevents from doing such deeds. But it's not just right understanding, there must be other cetasikas as well. That's why we learn about the wholesome cetasikas. It's not you who restrains. It's the wholesome cetasikas performing their functions.
At moment of understanding the truth can it be wrong or condition wrong deeds or speech? At moment of understanding? Not at all. Never harms any moment, never harms anybody, never harms oneself.
Okay, no doubt about akusala cetasikas, or still some doubts? Kama-upadana, is it very strong? [Yes, Ajahan, it's strong.] How do you know that it's strong? [Because when you think of something, then you want to take it, and when you get it...] Like this, do you want to take this? And this? It's so strong because anytime it experience the sensuous object, it is attached, instantly. So strong, every levels as well.
#DhammahomeTV source video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0JF3xPzvlU