Satipatthana, understanding directly that which has been heard

Excerpt #1 from the Dhamma discussion with Ajahn Sujin and Venerable Seewalee in Bkk on Jun 18th 2017.

[A. Sujin] So whatever arises, it's the object of clinging. For those who have the accumulation, clinging is so great, so much. That's why all kinds of rupas are objects of clinging. And the clinging itself is upadana, that's why there are five upadana-khandhas. The upadana, clinging to rupas, rupupadana: it clings to visible object, to sound, to smell, taste, and touch.

[V. Seewalee] Upadana is a kind of lobha, is it also wrong view?

[A. Sujin] The ditthi is different from clinging. Because after the sotapanna has eradicated the wrong understanding, there is still clinging. Sotapatti moment eradicates the defilement of wrong understanding completely, only that, but there is still kamupadana, clinging to sensous objects.

So sotapanna still clings to sensous object, but no misunderstanding at all, completely eradicated from then on.

[V. Seewalee] So, sotapanna means the foundation.

[A. Sujin] Sotapanna means the stream enterer.

[V. Seewalee] It is the foundation, for nibbana.

[A. Sujin] Sotapanna! Sotapanna means the magga which experiences nibbana, the third noble truth.

And the result is the sotapatti-phala, as result, instantly. Nothing can be there except its result, suddenly. That's why the kamma which can produce result, which cannot bring results in other moments, can only be lokuttara kamma. It brings result instantly, it does not have to wait like other vipakas, which depends on conditions.

So, the lokuttara cittas, they are eight, are lokuttara because they experience nibbana. And experiencing means thinking about that, being face-to-face, understanding nibbana as object, as clear as that. So what can eradicate defilements must be only lokuttara citta, completely.

[V. Seewalee] Eradicates in the sense that it sees clearly...

[A. Sujin] In the sense that it will never arise again. Because vipassana-ñana sees, but the moment of lokuttara experiences nibbana. Instead of having the other realities as its object, it has only nibbana as its object. That's why it can eradicate doubt about it, and wrong understanding about that which has no conditions to arise. By then, any doubt about anything is gone, completely.

Pañña is so great, only pañña knows, like now, we're talking about citta, cetasikas, and rupas, but now pañña is unsure, it's just beginming to develop. But when it's satipatthana it understands directly what appears now as dhamma, as its nature, on and on, until everything appears as dhamma, before experiencing nibbana.

That's why the first ñana of the vipassana-ñanas must be nāma-rūpa-pariccheda-ñāna. It means the demarcation of the nama and rupa which are there: the experiencing has no shape and form, and that which is the rupa cannot experience anything. That's why every word of the Buddha it's so true because it's there at moment of understanding it. And now it's appearing, but not with understanding.

So it's so natural, no one knows when awareness will arise, and no one knows when he or she will become enlightened, like when Sariputta met Assaji and when Kondañña listened to the word of the Buddha. Nobody knew, except the Buddha.

[V. Seewalee] In that verse it's coming from the enlightened person.

[A. Sujin] It means pañña.

[V. Seewalee] So it's clear, at the moment of hearing.

[A. Sujin] At the moment of sotapatti magga, it clears up kilesa with wrong understanding, only. The others are not completely eradicated yet.

[V. Seewalee] It comes from the enlightened person.

[A. Sujin] The moment of lokuttara citta is called enlighteninment. Because different cittas have different names. We use the word puthujjana for those who haven't experienced nibbana. And for the ariyans, all of them, they are the eight purisa-puggala. So, it's the sign or the word for the enlightened person, at that very moment too. So, only the lokuttara citta experiences nibbana, but the other moments after that, it is just seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting... without ditthi at all anymore, after that.

[V. Seewalee] They're just passing, with wisdom, with pañña.

[A. Sujin] Pañña, knows and understands better and better, clearer and clearer, until it knows nibbana. At that moment, nobody, only the citta is lokuttara, considered as the ariyan person.

[V. Seewalee] It is not any more mental activity creation after sotapatti magga.

[A. Sujin] After sotapatti? It is like the same, exactly. Because sotapanna knows that he or she still has the akusala which is left. To consider more, to experience more, to know more, until it is eradicated, stage by stage. That's why the sakadagami only eradicates the very, very strong attachment to sensous objects. But for the anagami, more understanding of the Teachings is there.

Attachment becomes less and less, like (before becoming sotapanna) the momements of having wrong understanding.

[V. Seewalee] About the five nivaranas...

[A. Sujin] Nivarana must be akusala, all kinds of akusala performs the function of nivarana, hindering, whenever it arises. The five hindrances.

[V. Seewalee] Like avijja.

[A. Sujin] When we talk about the five nivaranas, they do not include avijja because avijja is underlying every akusala moment. So, the five hindrances are for samatha-bhavana. But for vipassana bhavana, avijja-nivarana is another one. They're the arammana of satipatthana. So, the five, even if it is nivarana, can be object of understanding, of satipatthana.

[V. Seewalee] So these five nivaranas are there until one becomes sotapanna?

[A. Sujin] We have to know each one, and ditthi is not included. So, sotapanna still has all the five. Akusala is so thick, so great that it cannot be eradicated all at once. That's why even the moment of experiencing nibbana for the first time, it can just eradicate wrong understanding of realities, of all realities as conditioned by many, many conditions just to arise and fall away.

And when we talk about the conditions for seeing, it seems that we already know enough about it. But we can only know whether it's enough or not when vipassana-ñanas arises, and the first one is nama-rupa-pariccheda-ñana, but Is there attention then to the paccayas which are there? Just to the moment which is not self. That's why it has to be the second vipassana-ñana, paccaya-pariggaha-ñana. And even if realities are arising and falling away as always, pañña is not strong enough to attend to the moment of the arising and falling away, until it is the third vipassana-ñana, sammasana-ñana.

But this is not the khanti-ñana yet, the three kinds of khanti-ñana of vipassana-ñana (explained in Patisambhida Magga Atthakatha). Because the three kinds of vipassana, khanti, must start from udayabbaya-ñana (fourth vipassana-ñana).

[V. Seewalee] But is there any notions of passing and arising?

[A. Sujin] Every moment, every life, to be object of wether there is clinging to it or not. Because there are many kinds of clinging: clinging with wrong view, or clinging just with attachment, or clinging with mana. Even it's there it's unknown, because the arising and falling away in succession is so very rapid.

By understanding this one knows how long it takes to get to that point, from learning, from hearing, from considering, from seeing the value of understand reality in life, which is hiding behind ignorance.

[V. Seewalee] It seems that there is much confusion, every moment. We only need to apply our wisdom to understand that.

[A. Sujin] Ignorance is there.

[V. Seewalee] It arises from seeing the reality.

[A. Sujin] Understanding better and better.

[V. Seewalee] Seeing the anicca.

[A. Sujin] By hearing, but not experiencing directly the moment, that it arises and falls away.

[V. Seewalee] Isn'it after hearing that the experiencing comes?

[A. Sujin] It begins with: all dhammas are anatta, otherwise the atta comes in all the time.

[V. Seewalee] Yes, when we see the anicca there is no point in thinking of atta.

[A. Sujin] All conditioned realities arise and fall away.

[V. Seewalee] Right, they don't last even for a second, a split second. So, the atta doesn't come in, by that understanding.

[A. Sujin] At that moment, but it's still there because it is anusaya. So, at moment of understanding, it will be less and less. But it will still there, until the moment of sotapatti magga. Completely gone from then on. Realizing the truth of realities stage by stage.

[V. Seewalee] Yes, that is why the Buddha sometimes said to investigate, whether there is still something remaining.

[A. Sujin] Each one can only know oneself. And that is knowledge from hearing, not direct awareness with pañña which understands that which has been heard. Without listening, how can there be understanding of seeing now? Not that which is appearing!

[V. Seewalee] Hearing means whatever one is reading.

[A. Sujin] Hearing the words of the Buddha. Because the words of the other person cannot be condition for understanding seeing. Everyone can think, but after hearing one thinks about the words about realities, which lead to more and more understanding.

#Dhammahome source video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oELPpDqQmkk