The mirror of the Dhamma for seeing one's own nivāranas

Dhamma discussion (En-Hi) with Ajahn Sujin on Zoom on Sat Dec 28th 2024 (edited).
Mp3 audio file: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rOARAG5WARqbl5CQenoEB_uTJGAoX3WG

Nivārana, the moments of dwelling in ignorance

[Akhil] Nivāranas are kilesas.

[A. Sujin] We are learning about the truth of what is there, to understand the nature of what is there, as the Buddha has enlightened. All are dhammas and all are anatta, all dhammas are anatta. Learn just to let go of the ideas about nivārana. I have nivārana, right? Or no one, just nivārana! That's why, learn to let go of the clinging to that which is there right now, to understand what it is. It's there now, right? As it is, but no one knows. So, how can there be the letting go of the idea: I have nivārana? How many nivāranas are there? And when it's there, can there be the understanding of it? Not just of the word! Even now we are talking about nivārana, but even it's there right now, it's unknown. Or learning to understand what is there, not only the word, but the truth. So now, learn to understand the meaning of nivārana. So, we begin to understand, is it real? What have you heard about the word nivārana?

[Akhil] Ajahn, what we have heard about the word nivārana is that they are hindrances, and when we read Tipitaka, this word is used, nivārana, in the context of jhana.

[A. Sujin] What is nivārana when it's not jhana? So, what's the meaning or the nature of what is taken for nivārana? To understand, not to think about it as it's there as such and such, but when it's there: is it there now? [Yes.] Learning about what is nivārana. Even right now, which is not the moment of developing jhana, it's there. We're just learning about different moments in life and at moments of "developing jhana", not understanding what jhana is and what are the factors of jhana. How can it be known as it is? It's just one's own idea about nivārana, like it's the hindrance of jhana and so on. But what is it? Begining now. What is nivārana? Why is nivārana? And what are the natures of nivāranas? Little by little, so we can understand deeper and deeper, understanding the way or the manner or the way it's there appearing, not just thinking about it. Is there nivārana now? If you don't know what is nivārana and how many are there, different moments.

So, what is nivārana? It's not you at all. At the moment when nivārana arise and it's there for so very long, can be for the whole day, unknown. But learning to understand nivārana, beginning to understand life, beginning to understand the moment, which is different by conditions, whether it's nivārana or it is kilesa or whether it's ogha and so on. It's not just the word, but the reality, different conditions to be each different moment, never being the same at all. Even nivārana, previous lives, eons and eons ago, and now not the same one, but of the same kind. Learn to understand life, it's not permanent, and each moment is unknown until the Buddha realized its truth and shared his understanding with the others to understand the truth as he has realized, not just to understand the word, but understanding this moment, whether there is nivārana or not. So now, carefully study little by little, to understand the reality of nivārana, not just the word.

So, what is it, nivārana? Little by little. Is it now? But if you don't know what it is, how can there be the understanding whether it's there now? But when there is the understanding of what is there, it can be known, even by way of considering, because reality arises and falls away in split seconds, but learn to understand each different one. For example, right now, we don't talk about seeing because now there is the word nivārana. Is it real? What is it? And when is it?

Nivārana, because it can be for the whole day, unknown

So, what is nivārana that you have learned or read about? What is nivārana? It has to be one's own considering, not just being told. What is nivārana now? It's the moment to be condition for careful considering, to understand it. What is nivārana? Otherwise, if we don't talk about it, can there be the understanding of the moment when it's there or not there? So now, Khun Asha, what is nivārana?

[Akhil] Ajahn, Asha is saying, nivārana is like the obstacles which stop, which are the hindrances in nderstanding Dhamma.

[A. Sujin] Obstacle? This moment, or not now? [At this moment, it's there.] Is it real? [Yes.] Is it rupa? [No, Ajahn.] So what is it? [Nama.] That's the word. Because nama, rupa, is it now? What kind of nama? What kind of rupa? Otherwise, there's no understanding of what is there at all. Just the word, not enough at all because everyone knows what is real has to be one characteristic. It experiences the object or it cannot experience any object at all. So, is it useful to talk about it without understanding it at all?

[Akhil] Ajahn, at this moment, the nivārana is there, but we don't have any understanding of that moment, whether it is nivārana, whether it is something else.

[A. Sujin] That's why we go far away from this moment. Because what is there can be known, whatever the Buddha taught about, nivārana or kilesa or ayatana or paticca-samuppada, not the word, but the understanding of this very moment, little by little, to let go of wrong understanding. Don't hurry to know this or that, it's just the word. But the truth is that each word represents a reality right now. For example, citta, without understanding what is there as it is, by the word, carefully considered, citta is now that which experiences the object, right now, just the word, little by little, not to be forgotten, in order to get closer, to attend to the characteristic which cannot be anything else, only that which is the chief of experiencing what is there.

So, what is nivārana? Is it citta? Is nivārana citta? [Ajahn, nivārana is cetasika.] Not citta, right? [Yes, Ajahn.] Okay. So, what is it? What kind of cetasika? [Akusala cetasika.] What are they? How many nivāranas? How many kinds of cetasika? And what are they? In order that it can be known when it's there now, or not now yet, but when it will be there in the future or any moment, it can be known, because we have learned and considered the difference between citta and cetasikas, and even among cetasikas, what is nivārana and what is not nivārana. [Right, Ajahn.] Okay. So now, how many nivāranas are there? [I don't know, Ajahn.]

Hindering the understanding of the truth, or the moment of kusala

Okay. So, what is nivārana? [Nivārana is hindrance, Ajahn.] Hinders what? [Hindrance means... I am not understanding, Ajahn, but nivārana is right now.] Right now? [Yes, Ajahn.] What's hindering now? It's right now, so, what does it hinder? it's not just the word, the understanding of the truth is much more important. That is the way, that is so very subtle. [Right, Ajahn.] Understanding of the Teachings has to be understanding the subtlety of all kinds of dhamma. Even hardness right now, even that which is seen right now, even thinking right now, even not understanding the nivārana right now, all are real. Each one is different. That's why when we use the word hindrance, what does it hinder? See, what does it hinder? [Understanding, Ajahn.] Okay. Understanding what? [Understanding of the present moment, understanding of realities.] So, what is that very moment which hinders? We have to understand that nivārana, not in words, but the moment it's there, like when one's saying: it's there right now. It's not just the word, but the characteristic of that which hinders the truth right now. If it's not known, how can it be eradicated? [Right, Ajahn.]

So, we learn to understand this moment, or any moment, what is that which is hindering right now? Hindering the understanding of the truth right now, or hindering the moment of kusala. Any moment, any kind of kusala. It's there, hindering the moment of kusala when it's there. So, what is it? Learn to understand the moment when it's there, not the word. So, what is there in the book? How many kinds of nivārana? [I don't know, Ajahn.] So, where did you get this word from? From the text, or what? [Ajahn, I have read about before, but for Asha, it is the first time.] Okay. You've read about nivārana. What are they, that you've read? Did it say how many nivāranas are there? Or was there just the word nivārana, in the book? We have to be precise and truthful to understand the truth, which is so very subtle. When it's wrong, there will never be the right object to be experienced at all. Even if it's there, no understanding of it. So, how many of them, or what is just one nivārana? While there are many moments of akusala because nivārana is just a kind of akusala, or kilesa, cetasika. But what are they, which hinder, at what moment? See, this is the understanding of reality right now.

People just read about nivārana, but not enough understanding when it's there to be known. Just keep on thinking, from what is said in the book. But the word in the book represents the nature, the truth of what is there to be known as dhamma, a dhamma, anatta. This is the point of understanding what is there. Not just reading without any understanding at all. So, just one kind of nivārana, can you consider what is it? Just one kind? What does it say in the book? How many kinds? Or none at all? Or just the word nivārana? [Ajahn, doubt.] How many kinds of kilesa which hinder, perform the function of nivārana? So subtle that it cannot be known at all, if there's no considering, so carefully, a little more carefully, a little more carefully.

This is the way to study the Dhamma, the words of truth, shared by the Enlightened One, His great wisdom and His great compassion, His great virtues. Otherwise, it doesn't have any meaning at all. Just opening the book... and what do you understand? This means that and that's that. What about now? It's just following the word, just copying the word. But what about the understanding of the reality right now as a dhamma? So, do you know the first nivārana, or just any one? What is nivārana? There is not only one reality, more than that. So, how many realities are nivārana? Dhamma is so subtle. Without considering carefully, no one would understand the virtues of the Buddha and His great compassion for everyone. To listen carefully to understand the very subtle reality. Can you remember now just one nivārana? Or just open the book! Because we don't just talk about the word. We talk about each very, very fine, very, very subtle reality, which is not easy to be known.

It's time to condition right understanding, to let go of doubt

[Sukin] Than Ajahn, Akhil mentioned doubt.

[A. Sujin] Okay. At this moment, he cannot know because of doubt, is that right? Is that right? Now he cannot know because there's doubt at that moment. So doubt hinders the understanding of what appears and what is said about it. Right? There will be less doubt when there is a little more understanding. So now begin to understand what is meant by nivārana. [Right, Ajahn] And what else? It's not just doubt, which hinders. This is to learn to understand life, real life, true life, each moment, as dhamma, not anyone at all. So now, not forgetting about doubt. It hinders. So, the only way to have less doubt is understanding by considering and understanding the nature of that which is so subtle. Even doubt is a hindrance for understanding. That's why if there is still doubt about the word, about the truth at that moment, it cannot understand the truth because it's doubting. But when there is very careful, very wise considering of that which is now appearing, there can be less doubting.

So, doubt can be eradicated, never to arise again after moment of sotapatti magga. For sotapanna, can there be doubt? [No, Ajahn.] All kinds? Or there will still be some kinds of nivārana? That's why we have to learn more carefully about just one word, nivārana. So, sotapanna doesn't have doubt and from then on, sakadagami, anagami, arahatta: never have doubt because what is meant by eradication, it's the end of the sankhara-khandha conditioning doubt. But without doubt, can there be other nivārana? Without doubt, can there be other nivārana? Sotapanna eradicates doubt. Absolutely. Ultimately, never to arise again from that moment on in samsara. Otherwise, there would be no difference between the sotapanna and the one who is not sotapanna.

[Akhil] Ajahn, there are others, like sensual desires, ill will, sloth and torpor, restlessness. So, there are more than one.

[A. Sujin] That's why, learn about the truth of each reality. Even there's no doubt, there are still other kilesas, unwholesome realities which are nivārana when they're there, not just very briefly. So, what about doubt, all day or few moments? See... More than just one. When there is doubt and then it's gone because of no interest in it, not talking about it anymore. It seems like there's no doubt at all, but actually, doubt does not arise because it doesn't arise all the time, only when it's there. But for the sotapanna, no doubt at all. There will never be any moment of doubt after attaining enlightenment at the level of sotapanna. So, it means that there can be akusala, but not as much as to become nivārana.

Byapada, anger, the reality which harms or hurts that very moment

For example, what about anger, irritation, that you cannot sleep because it's there all the time. Just thinking about it almost all day or for a long time before sleeping. It's there. Just thinking about that which is irritation or anger, isn't that nivārana? It hinders the moment of understanding that, even that very moment of anger, no matter what level. It hinders considering the truth, that it's just a reality. No one can stop it because whatever arises is conditioned. And this is the way to let go of all kinds of kilesa, at the moment of understanding, and that moment is sati. So, we talk about it, but just the word is not enough. We have to learn from the very beginning about what cetasikas are unwholesome, by what manners, and what are the wholesome realities, cetasikas, which cannot be any kind of akusala.

For example, when there is considering about the truth of what is heard, even before sleeping, it is not doubt, it doesn't hinder, but it's time to condition right understanding, to let go of doubt because it begins to attend to the nature of that, from hearing to become moment of considering, and so on. So it's about life, each moment, the moment of nivārana and the moment of kusala. At the moment of clinging to one object, sensuous object, what is seen? So very beautiful. It can be a cloth, or it can be a landscape, or it can be whatever is there. At that moment no thought about the truth: it's just that which is seen. So right understanding understands what hinders. So, it can gradually let go of the conditions for that to arise. For example, one stays angry for so long, and it's there even when one wakes up or before sleeping. That's all, it's there by conditions. No understanding, not seeing the danger of that. It's not the moment which harms someone else or the others, or the one you are angry with, but it's only the reality which arises and harms or hurts that very moment, not to be kusala. Forgiving or keeping on getting angry.

All are daily life, understanding the moment when it's there, akusala, no kusala at all, just thinking about it while one is eating, while one is dressing, while one is going to bed and so on. How come? By conditions! So, right understanding keeps away from clinging to that moment as: I am angry with that person, never forgiving, and so on. But forgiveness doesn't just mean phoning or trying to make that person happy and so on. It has to be wise forgiveness too, to help that person to understand deeper about what has been done and how it can become less. When akusala is not there anymore, it's still like that. It cannot become less. And one thinks that it's all right, it's forgotten, but no thought about it, or sometimes thinking about it. But when it's really forgiveness, no thought about the other's mistakes and so on. But not to try to help that person so much, like: oh, I'm your good friend, and so on. To be good friend means to help others to understand the truth and behave accordingly to the understanding of the truth, more and more. So, there are many things to be known, what is the right way and what is the wrong way.

Clinging to the story instead of thinking about the nature of that reality

Even kāma-chanda, on and on, thinking all day about what to have for breakfast, tomorrow and so on, isn't that nivārana? Any moment when it's not kusala and it keeps on thinking about that, it is nivārana. Any moment of akusala, which is not kusala, are the conditions to keep on thinking about it, not forgetting or not letting go at all, not understanding that it's akusala, whatever will arise, is conditioned by its own conditions. Please, any questions?

[Akhil] Ajahn, when you were telling about all day, but we don't only have anger all day, or doubt, but we have got many other things also like sloth and torpor is there, restlessness is there, there are many more, envy is there, brooding is there, many things are there apart from doubt.

[A. Sujin] Kusala or akusala? [Akusala, Ajahn.] So it is nivārana, when it stays longer, not forgetting that at all, just thinking about it, even it's not doubt, it can be what is seen, what is tasted and what is touched, keeping on thinking about that, it seems like it's not hindrance, but in truth whatever is akusala is that, clinging, more than usual, because now there is clinging to what is seen right now, so very short, but when it's there more and more, almost all day, all night, the characteristic of that which is nivārana appears, it hinders moments of kusala, instead of thinking about the nature of that reality to be known, it's not that, it just clings to the story, to the event, to what happened and on and on and on. Isn't that nivārana? It keeps away from kusala. To know how much you understand about nivārana, too. So now, a little more understanding of nivārana. A little more, is that right? [Right, Ajahn] More understanding, and it has to be known, not just talking about. For example, today, just doing something about what you like, all day, and then the word of truth can be a reminder: is it nivārana? Because it doesn't condition the understanding of what is there. So, beginning to understand what is meant by obstacle, hindrance, because the moment of akusala, no matter what kind: no understanding, because akusala is conditioned by avijja. So, learn to understand what is meant, what reality is hindrance, it has to be all kinds of akusala, is that right? [Right, Ajahn] That's why who eradicates all nivāranas? Who can eradicate all kinds of akusala, or has eradicated? Arahatta, right? [Right, Ajahn] So, one can understand many degrees of nivārana, that which cannot be known all day because of no understanding enough. So, what is there which is so very little cannot be known yet, because paññā is not strong enough, it has to be more or stronger. That's why, stage by stage: for sotapanna, before sotapanna, what are nivāranas, after sotapanna, what are nivārana, after becoming sakadagami, what are nivāranas, until not any akusala is left at all. It's all gone, that is arahatta: no nivārana. [Right, Ajahn.] For anyone who does not develop samatha, is there nivārana? [Nivārana is there.] We now begin to understand different manners, different aspects of akusala. [Yes, Ajahn, yes, Ajahn.] So, when there is right understanding, can we say: all kinds of akusala are nivārana? Hindrances to right understanding and to kusala. That's why sometimes there are these words about nivārana: five nivāranas and six nivāranas. Five kinds of nivārana, and in some places six kinds of nivārana. Because for different people, different levels of understanding, for sotapanna, for sakadagami, for arahatta. The five nivāranas hinder the development of samatha, they just think about these. So, for whom five, and when are they six? See, all are true in different aspects. So, it's the understanding of kilesas, unwholesome cetasikas. When it's not strong enough in the day, can it be known that it hinders moments of kusala?

Kāma-chanda, the moment of enjoying the object of seeing, hearing...

For example, right now, there is clinging to seeing, hearing, and other realities. Is it known that they're nivārana? Because they're not strong. So, no one knows whether there is nivārana, the five nivāranas, today, or in the morning, or now. But the attachment to the sensuous object is the enemy of the development of samatha. What's the benefit of understanding nivārana?

[Akhil] Ajahn, Asha is adding, it will lead us towards more understanding.

[A. Sujin] There will be less hindrances to understand the Teachings, and understanding of why and what conditions moments of no understanding, or no kusala moment. There are many moments of akusala in the day, uncountable, compared to the moments of kusala. [Right, Ajahn] And what hinders the moment of kusala? If it's not known, there must be moments of akusala on and on and on. So, when we say: all kinds of akusala hinder the moment of kusala, that is not enough. So, more to learn about what are the hindrances of akusala. [Ajahn, please repeat.] Because, without understanding the moment which is kusala, its being different from moment which is akusala. What hinders the moment of kusala to arise? If it's not known, it's there, hindering, on and on and on. So, at this moment, what are the hindrances for any kind of kusala to arise?

[Akhil] Ajahn, Asha is adding, there are doubts which are hindrances to understanding.

[A. Sujin] Okay, and how can doubt be less?

[Akhil] Ajahn, Asha is saying, that when we will consider more about the Dhamma, then we will have more understanding.

[A. Sujin] And, if we don't talk about the manners in which akusala hinders, how can it be known that it's now hindering? [Never, it can't be known without that.] So now, shall we learn about the five hindrances, nivārana? [Yes, Ajahn.] Okay, at moment of enjoying anything through eyes, ears, on and on, is that a hindrance? [Yes.] If it's not pointed out at that moment: it's the clinging to sensuous objects, hindering the moment of kusala. For example, enjoying what is seen and heard and so on, at that moment it hinders, it hinders the moment of kusala, because at that moment it is enjoying the object. So, at any moment of clinging to the sensuous object, that can be the moment of understanding kāma-chanda nivārana. Is it in the book, or is it now? [It's now, Ajahn.] So, the person who understands the danger of clinging to the sensuous object, begins to have less clinging. And only the person who sees the danger of clinging to the sensuous object, understands what's the way to have less attachment to the sensuous object. That's why they're mentioned in connection to the development of samatha bhavana. So, the moment of just staying away, or not having the moment of experiencing a sensuous object, was the only way to have less clinging, kāma-chanda nivārana. So, even without understanding the path leading to being calm, just by being quite away from attachment to the sensuous object, can be condition to have more calm. Can anyone see the danger of moments of clinging to sensuous objects all day? [Ajahn, Asha is saying, no.] That's so true. That is sacca-parami. Being truthful to the truth. Because no understanding of the danger of being attached to what is seen and heard, in the day, at all. It has to be the level of paññā, which sees the danger of clinging so much to sensuous objects, which leads to ill-deeds and ill-speech and all kinds of akusala kamma.

So, in the day, does anyone see the danger of clinging to sensuous object, so much that it can lead to ill-speech and ill-deeds and all kinds of very serious akusala kamma? So, it has to be only that person, who understands the danger of clinging to sensuous objects, conditioning akusala kamma, very serious or very heavy kamma, akusala kamma. Before the enlightenment of the Buddha, no one understood the way to enlighten the truth of anatta. All they could know was the danger of attaching to the sensuous objects and how to have less. That is the way to develop samatha bhavana. So, just wanting to be calm without understanding the danger of clinging to sensuous object, can that be calm? And without understanding the way to be calmer and calmer, can there be calm? Or more and more attachment to that which one would like to have? So, when someone says that now I'm developing samatha, by just sitting and concentrating on one object, is that the way or the path to have tranquil meditation, samatha-bhavana? [No, Ajahn] Is it an hindrance? [Yes, Ajahn.] Because it's clinging to something which that person thinks that it's the way, but actually it's just clinging to the other moment, the other way, but not right. Even samatha-bhavana has to be studied in order to understand whether it's the way of calmness or the way of no understanding and attachment to different objects. [Yes, Ajahn]. So now, again, about nivārana, are all kinds of akusala nivārana? [Yes, Ajahn.] Okay, so now we talk about the first one, kāma-chanda nivārana, every moment, from morning up to now, all about kāma-chanda, right? Just clinging to it on and on and on, unknowingly that it's kāma-chanda nivārana because it hinders the moment of understanding the truth. And what else besides the kāma-chanda? Daily life. So now, no doubt about kāma-chanda nivārana. So, we can go on, to the next one. So, what is the next, in daily life? It's nivārana unknown that it's nivārana, but all kinds of akusala are nivārana.

The mirror of the Dhamma for seeing one's own nivāranas

Usually, when it's not kāma-chanda, it's byapada nivārana, beginning to understand even the moment of anger, aversion, it hinders the development of right understanding, or just the understanding of the truth at that moment. At moment of thinking about someone with hatred and no understanding about what is there at all, hatred is there, thinking about that person in different ways and manners, about their behavior that you do not like. So, it is byapada nivārana, it's there in life. It's time to understand one's own fault, one's own akusala, one's own nivārana, like when thinking about the others with hatred or irritation, instead of understanding the truth. Isn't it dangerous to keep on thinking about the others' unwholesomeness, their unwholesome deeds? Or, isn't it useless? [Ajahn, it's useless.] Okay, so the Dhamma is the only way, the mirror, the looking glass, seeing one's own reality right then. [Right, Ajahn.] Otherwise, what is the benefit of understanding what is nivārana? So, the next one you already know, vicikiccha, doubt. When it's doubt, it's not the understanding of what is there as it is. So, at moment of akusala, moment of ignorance, no understanding of the truth, the conditions are there to condition akusala all day, if you don't talk about vipaka and kiriya cittas. [Right, Ajahn] The miracle of the Teachings of the Buddha, conditioning the understanding of the truth as not I or anyone, they are all dhammas. And understanding what is wholesome and what is unwholesome. When there's no understanding, it has to be the moment of ignorance and akusala, but when right understanding is there, it can understand the truth of the nature of that which is wholesome or which is unwholesome. Otherwise, the unwholesomeness cannot become less. Is there any doubt about what has been heard about vicikiccha nivārana? Or understanding of that which is vicikiccha nivārana?

[Akhil] Ajahn, Asha is adding she wants to hear more from you regarding vicikiccha nivārana.

[A. Sujin] Okay, vicikiccha is doubting the truth, whether it's true. That doubt hinders the understanding of what is being said. For example, seeing now... ignorance, attachment, aren't they nivārana? Hindering the understanding of the truth. Or doubting about whether it's I or just a reality, doubt. [Ajahn, say it again, please.] Can doubt arise together with right understanding? [No.] See, that's why understanding: moment of doubt, no understanding. And at moment of understanding, no doubt about what is being said or what is being talked about. [Right, Ajahn.] That's why, now, is there any doubt about vicikiccha nivārana? [No, Ajahn.] So, what are the other two nivārana? See, all kinds of akusala condition nivārana, moments of no understanding as long as it's dwelling on ignorance. [Right, Ajahn.] So, please say all of them, that you have heard and understood. The nivārana, the first. [Ajahn, kāma-chanda nivārana?] Yes. Shall we talk about what is there that can be known? For example, kāma-chanda nivārana, in the day we are busy with what we like and try to have it more and more and on and on. So, it is kamachanda, the interest in having kāma all day, right? And its opposite is byapada nivārana, that which you don't like at all. And the one you are very interested in, what is that? Vicikiccha nivārana, right? [Yes, Ajahn.] And when you cannot understand it, it is kukkucca, right? [Yes, Ajahn.] It's nivārana too, you keep on thinking about it, wanting to have it or why you can't have it and so on. And clinging to that which has been done, wrong or right deeds. Can there be kukkucca (regret) about that, the wrong deeds that have been done? [Yes, Ajahn.] And the next, thina-middha, at that moment, no need to understand anything, right? Better to sleep. So, it's nivārana. But if it's not wanting to sleep, but it's listening to the Dhamma and understanding it more and more, you see the benefit of not just sleeping and no understanding. Instead, when it's not the moment of sleeping, it can be the moment of understanding the truth. So, it's not nivārana when it's not sleepiness or drowsiness or sloth and torpor.

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